Lori Leibovich

Salon recently spoke with Godbey, a professor of leisure studies at Penn State University.

Government findings and the conclusions of authors like Arlie Hochschild say the opposite of what you’re saying — that Americans have much less time for rest and relaxation, that we are working harder than ever.

I read Hochschild’s most recent book and she does what is sometimes called “qualitative research” — that is, she’s taken a single location and a single company and then said, “Here’s the way it is.” She tends to believe people if they tell her they work 60 hours a week — then she writes in the book, “They worked 60 hours a week.” We would want to measure this, because people’s estimation of what they do, how much time they spend with things, tends to be highly inaccurate.

The first time I was asked how much time I spent watching TV, I said, “Hey, I’m a professor, I don’t watch much TV.” I kept a diary and found I watch 18 hours a week. But that’s not what I would have told someone. Several years ago I did a study in which we asked people how many times in the last year they used the gym they belong to. Then we checked the sign-in systems at the clubs and found that half of our respondents overestimated their use by more than 100 percent. They think to themselves, “I’m the kind of person who does work out. I don’t watch soap operas and I don’t sit and suck beer and watch the NBA playoffs. That’s not me, man.”

Your study concluded that we are spending more time on leisure activities, whereas we tend to think that our lives are becoming busier as the years pass by. A lot of people will look at the study and say, “How can that be?”

We think the pace of life has sped up tremendously. When we ask people about feeling rushed, over a third of the population say they always feel rushed, which is fairly sad. However, time has many qualities. Duration is one and tempo is one. You can work for shorter periods but work under great stress and work very quickly. The Italians work pretty long hours and they work pretty slowly. These are different things and we think there’s a huge problem in terms of pace.

When you started out, did you think that your study would confirm what everyone seems to feel — that there are just not enough hours in a day to do what we need to do?

We had no hypothesis, we were not setting out to prove something. What’s been amazing to us is that several other studies reported in American Demographics come up with the same numbers. A Canadian study finds no increase in work and an average of 42 hours of free time per week. So we’re not nut-case professors. For a while, we were starting to think that we were.

What is leisure studies?

There are two parts. The first examines what people do during their free time, how it affects the economy, how it affects their health and what consequences it has for society. The second part trains people who work for municipal recreation park departments, theme parks, national parks, Walt Disney — various types of commercial recreation operations. Leisure studies is concerned with life away from work — organized forms of recreation, play, leisure, sport, culture. There are about 300 leisure studies curriculums in North America.

Why is it important to study leisure?

I know that “leisure studies” sounds funny, but on the other hand, so does solid waste management. It happens that solid waste management is pretty important. If no one managed the solid waste in your house or apartment you would begin to think it was important. Two-thirds of the American public says that leisure is more important, or as important as, their work. The astounding thing now is that we’re finally getting some respect and attention, because the implications of what people do during their free time for health, and particularly for containing health-care costs, turn out to be extraordinarily important. So whether people exercise mind, body and talent during their free time or whether they veg out ends up being fairly important — it affects Medicare, Medicaid and other public policy programs.

What kind of time diaries did people keep for this project?

The first time-diary study was done in 1965. Subsequent studies were done in ’75, ’85 and ’95. One of the unique things about this project is that it gives us a basis to make sound judgments because this is what people tell us they do, not what we think they do. We did not ask time estimate questions like, “How often do you work out?” because they usually produce spurious results. For example, we ask people to estimate how much time they worked during a week, then we check their time diary; they usually overestimate between one and seven hours per week, because working hard and being busy is a status symbol in our culture right now.

Your study found that people are watching a lot of television. If TVs were abolished tomorrow, what would we do instead?

Socialize more is one answer — visit other people, talk to other people. You know, it’s easy to knock TV. But we find that the increases in free time since 1965 — about five or six hours a week — have been devoted to watching television. Part of the reason for that is that of the 40 hours of free time per week Americans average, 25 occur on weekdays and they come in small increments or chunks that are tailor-made for watching television.

People tell us that what they really want is a day of free time, so they can go to the lake or something. What they get are short bursts, which are convenient for watching television.

In these short bursts, do people really have time to unwind?

Actually, the bursts add up to a lot of time. People are much more rushed in our society than they were in 1965. What you’re asking is a great question, because even though it is free time, people still sit and say: “What’s next? What should I be doing?” So in that sense, it is not a deeply refreshing activity.

Did your findings uncover a particular group of people who were not watching a lot of TV?

I can’t answer that in a systematic way. What I can tell you, because I’ve done about 50 radio talk shows in the last two weeks and talked to a lot of people, is that many people are saying, “Look, I got rid of my TV,” or “I’m on a TV diet.” They’ve started reacting against it, instead of automatically flipping it on when they get home or walk into the room. So there seems to be increasing awareness that TV can be a negative presence. In the survey we also found that a lot of people don’t think of television as free time.

Why not?

We can’t get a straight answer from them. They say, “Well it’s not really free time.” And we say, “Well is someone making you watch it?” People consider TV as a totally separate thing. But since it takes up 40 percent of people’s free time, it’s a fairly important category.

Americans spent less than an hour a week of their leisure time, on average, participating in cultural or religious activities. How does that compare with 30 years ago?

In survey after survey, American say that religion is very important to them. But they spend about nine-tenths of one hour per week with it, so it may be important but it’s not a very time-consuming behavior. The question is, if it’s so important, why is it such a tiny — less than an hour a week — percentage of a person’s week?

Has the amount of time we spend with religion fallen with the rise in watching TV?

Not really. People didn’t spend much time with religion 30 years ago, though women spent a little more time than men. We think part of that is that women have had less freedom to use their leisure time in the ways they wanted. One of the places they could meet and get out of the house was a church or synagogue.

Does sex count as free time? Was there a sex category in your study?

One of the few things that people will not tell you about in a time diary is sexual behavior. They will get around drug use by saying, “Partying at somebody’s apartment with friends.” But they generally will not tell you about sex. One of the amazing things we found in the book is that we have a half an hour on average per week unaccounted for in people’s reports. A huge study has just come out on human sexual behavior that we believe has found a way to accurately measure sex. It involves multiple contacts with the same person — in effect gaining their trust and insuring them of their anonymity. And they find that the average American between the ages of 18 and 65 devotes about a half an hour a week to sexual activity. That says nothing about incidents of sexual intercourse, that simply says “time devoted.” And that’s exactly the amount of time we have unaccounted for in our diaries.

Years ago, an economist who studies this said that our society is more promiscuous not because our values have changed, but because our society has sped up so much, the only kind of intimacy you can have quickly is sexual. You can’t have spiritual intimacy. It takes years to know the person’s hopes and dreams and values and beliefs. So what can happen quick?

“We figured she’s only 3, she’s not comprehending this,” says Jay. “But she was.”

Shannon’s grandmother, Myrna Yaskulka, was killed in the World Trade Center on 9/11. She worked as an executive secretary at Fred Alger Management, located on the 93rd floor of the north tower. Five years after her death, the Yaskulkas, like thousands of families who lost loved ones on Sept. 11, are still coping with the aftershocks.

Jay, 38, a former Target manager, has been unemployed since 2000 and suffers from clinical depression. Louise, 40, remains plagued by guilt because she was supposed to be standing in front of the towers, on her way to work, when the planes hit. Their daughter, Brianna, 13, is furious about the way her grandmother was killed. And Shannon, 8, still fights against the debilitating symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. When the sky turns dark, the way it did when the smoke filled it on Sept. 11, she is often paralyzed with panic.

The public tragedy has dredged up past family traumas while also creating new psychological wounds. Losing a loved one is always painful, but losing her under horrifying circumstances makes recovery so much more difficult. “Usually when grieving, you get to a point when you can reminisce and remember good times,” says Alan Steinberg, associate director of the National Center for Child Traumatic Stress at UCLA. “But if every time you think of them, your mind is drawn to the horrifying way they died, your positive memories are blocked.”

Yet Jay and Louise are determined to keep their positive memories of Myrna alive, and are doing everything in their power to help their daughters move through their grief. In 2003, they moved from Staten Island, N.Y., where Myrna and many friends and neighbors who perished in the towers had lived, to the middle-class town of Hazlet. They have taken advantage, individually and together, of the free therapeutic services available to 9/11 families. Jay and Louise strive to keep the girls from dwelling on the tragic day, but they have also instituted a family rule: No subject, not Osama bin Laden or Islam or their personal demons, is off limits. For the past five years, openness has been their chosen method of coping — and they’re banking on truth and honesty to help their daughters heal.

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On a recent scorching August afternoon, Jay is sitting on a leather couch in his dark and heavily air-conditioned living room. A bald, stocky man with a blond mustache and bright blue eyes, his posture is rigid from a chronic back condition, but he relaxes when he speaks about Myrna.

She was a “party animal,” he says, laughing and recounting his mother’s love of dancing and attending singles events. She was the girls’ “human Barbie doll” and let them paint her face with makeup and style her hair. A compulsive shopper, Myrna visited Century 21, the famous discount department store near the World Trade Center, every workday. After Myrna’s death, Louise found 200 pairs of sunglasses and an entire trunk of clothes, including glamorous evening gowns that still had the price tags on them, in her apartment.

Myrna’s remains were never recovered, so the Yaskulkas filled two urns with poems, mementos and a Century 21 bag. Her cemetery plot has a view of the Woodridge Mall in New Jersey. “She chose that spot because she wanted to face Bloomingdale’s,” Jay says, chuckling. Photographs of Myrna show a woman who looked dramatically younger than her 59 years, a woman who fancied rhinestone sunglasses, gold lamé raincoats and white faux-fur hats, like the one that sits atop a bust on an end table in the Yaskulkas’ living room, a tribute to its owner.

The Yaskulkas’ boxy ranch house sits on a quiet street, lined with similarly compact houses. On the Saturday I visit, they are holding a garage sale and their driveway is filled with old toys, tchotchkes and furniture. Neighbors and friends mingle on the lawn and kids splash in the backyard pool. Even though the Yaskulkas moved to Hazlet three and half years ago, they still haven’t fully unpacked; boxes are scattered around the house and the dining room table is covered in papers. In a corner of the small upstairs hallway stands a curio cabinet filled with 9/11 mementos: a star of David made from a steel beam from ground zero, a copy of the 9/11 Commission Report and a portrait of Myrna painted by Brianna.

Unlike other families who spent the first weeks after 9/11 waiting and praying for their loved ones to return, Jay says he knew immediately that his mother was dead. “My brothers and I — we always talked about the fact that there was a black cloud over our family,” he says. “I wanted to believe otherwise, but I knew.” The black cloud first formed in 1981, when Jay’s father, Stuart, was murdered in a botched robbery. “Three gunshots to the head for $60,” says Jay, who was 13 at the time. “Both my parents went to work and never came home.”

It’s the senseless and violent death of his father — and the fact that his family kept silent about it — that make Jay and Louise fiercely determined to talk with their daughters about their grandmother’s death, if the kids want to. “I don’t want them to keep it inside like I did,” Jay says. “As a kid, I tried to keep busy. I tried not to think about my father and I had a lot of anger.”

Shortly after 9/11, Jay attended community meetings in Staten Island, but they soon began to bother him. The auditoriums were filled with children who had lost parents, and yet no one was talking to, or about, them. At one meeting, Jay rose to address the parents in the crowd. “I said, ‘Kids understand more than we think they do,’” and then he told them about his experience as a fatherless 13-year-old. “I said, ‘I’m not a psychologist, but I can tell you what it’s like.’” He shared with them the fact that as a grown man he cried at his wedding, at the birth of his children, and each year on his father’s birthday. While trauma settles and recedes over time, on certain occasions it rises to the surface. “The pain never goes away,” Jay says he told the parents. “Even for children — especially for children.”

“If you as an adult can’t understand how something like 9/11 could happen,” Jay says, “how will you explain it to a child?”

Yet Jay and Louise have made it a priority to explain as much as possible to their daughters. “If my kids ask, I tell them,” says Louise. “I don’t lie. My parents used to say, ‘If you’re smart enough to ask, you’re smart enough to understand the truth.’” When Brianna asked why someone wanted to kill her grandmother, Louise explained to her that “they didn’t kill Grandma, they killed Americans, they targeted the heart of America. That helped her make sense of it,” Louise says.

“The girls need to know what’s going on because they’ll get bits and pieces and hear things the wrong way otherwise,” Jay says. “We think this is the best. Are we right? You never know. That’s the tricky part of parenting.”

As I sit and talk with Jay and Louise, Shannon and Brianna walk in and out of the room, sometimes pausing to hear their mother’s or father’s words. Jay talks matter-of-factly about his depression and the medication he needs to take to treat it. Louise weeps openly and speaks of the sometimes strained relationship she had with Myrna, how difficult it can be at times to live with a depressed husband, and the survivor’s guilt she still suffers from. She tells me that when she was 9 years old, her mother had two massive strokes that left her unable to care for herself. “I became her caretaker with my dad and a health aide,” says Louise, who has three younger siblings. “I grew up with my mom sick, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the [younger] kids. That was my training for this. That was God’s way of preparing me.”

Louise tells me that a week ago she “broke down” and started crying uncontrollably. “Even though it’s been five years, it’s still so crisp,” she says of 9/11. At the time, Louise was an associate at Citibank, located a few blocks from the World Trade Center. She decided to drive to work on Sept. 11 so she could get home in time to vote — it was Election Day — and attend Brianna’s back-to-school night. When she emerged from the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel she heard the roar of the second tower falling and sat in her car while the world turned gray around her. Had she taken the bus as usual, she would have been steps away from the towers when the planes hit. “I sat in the car and called to Myrna, ‘Where are you? Where are you’” Louise says. Myrna, who always shopped at Century 21 before work, decided to get to the office early on Sept. 11. “Why did I do what I did, and why did she do what she did?” Louise asks. “We both did something unexpected and she died and I lived.”

To Jay and Louise, Shannon’s wounds sometimes seem the deepest. “She’s afraid of gloom,” Louise says of her youngest daughter. “Rain triggers disaster to her because rain means lightning, thunder, darkness.” For months after 9/11, Shannon carried around a tiny guitar and belted out “God Bless America” on the front porch of her Staten Island house and at the local mall. She constantly peppered her parents with questions. “Why did those men kill Grandma Myrna?” “When they finish cleaning up ground zero will grandma come home?”

Although the images she saw on television on Sept. 11 were fleeting, they lodged in Shannon’s consciousness. Sitting on an ottoman in the living room, Louise, crying quietly, ticks off the symptoms that dog Shannon. If Shannon wakes up and it’s raining outside, she often won’t go to school, preferring to hide in the safety of her bed. She can become so panicked by the weather, or the smell of smoke, that she’ll vomit or even run a fever. “All of this started after 9/11,” Louise says.

“She’ll start crying out of nowhere,” adds Brianna, who is curled up on the couch a few feet from her mother. “She says, ‘I want to live forever.’” Shannon’s fears sometimes hinder the family’s activities. A few weeks ago, the Yaskulkas were enjoying a Saturday afternoon at a car show when the wind began to blow and the sky began to darken. Immediately the family packed up and left. “If it rains, we leave as a family, together,” says Louise. “Our family and friends accept it.”

Shannon has been in and out of counseling for five years. She has made progress with some psychologists, but not with others. Last year, after seeing a young therapist-in-training who worked in conjunction with her schoolteachers, Shannon was able to overcome her fear of going to school for several months. Louise says Shannon has coped well with a recent spate of East Coast thunderstorms, but she’s concerned about what worries the coming school year might trigger.

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Brianna’s reaction to her grandmother’s death has taken a different turn than her sister’s. Rather than becoming consumed by fear, she has focused her feelings outward, railing against President Bush, the media, and anyone who dares to tell her they’re sorry that her grandmother died. With her dirty blond hair in a messy ponytail, black bra straps peaking from underneath a white tank top, and a diamond stud glittering in her nose, she looks more like 18 than 13.

“I hate when people say, ‘I’m sorry,’” Brianna tells me. “I tell them, ‘Why? You didn’t do anything!’” She also hates — hates!– President Bush. “Because of his stupidity, my grandmother is dead,” she tells me.

“If Brianna sees Bush on the news, she says, ‘He knew this was going to happen,’” Jay adds. “She really tenses up at the news and I can’t blame her. I’m mad too. Why are we going after Saddam? I’m confused too.”

Brianna expresses similar rage over the ubiquitous media representations of 9/11, whether it’s TV coverage of the foiled terror plot in Britain, previews for Oliver Stone’s “World Trade Center” or the flurry of images — some as innocuous as billowing American flags, some as wrenching as the buckling towers — that have been blanketing the media in the lead-up to the fifth anniversary.

“I threw my remote at the TV when I saw a commercial for [the Oliver Stone movie],” Brianna tells me from her perch on the couch. “A movie is supposed to be entertaining. [Movies like that] give more information to people than they need to know or want to know. And for those who lost people, it brings back the tragedy. But there is no way to stay away from reminders — on the news, radio, TV, now a movie. Enough!”

Psychologists say many victims — particularly children and teenagers — want to rid themselves of the 9/11 badge. “No matter how well a kid is doing in every other regard — and I’ve seen children be so incredibly emotionally mature about their relationship with their dead parents — they always feel like a 9/11 kid,” says Marylene Cloitre, a research psychologist, who has worked with hundreds of children who lost parents on 9/11 in her role as director of the Institute for Trauma and Stress at New York University’s Child Study Center. “Many of them look forward to college for the opportunity to be free of that ID. And that ID has been tough to shake because of what 9/11 has meant to the city and country.”

But Brianna in some ways has embraced her association with the attacks. She is happy to talk to the media and when she meets new people, she immediately tells them about the way her grandmother was killed. On the first day of school she informed her history teacher that she will not attend lessons on 9/11. (“I don’t need to learn about it,” she tells me. “I lived it.”) Brianna insists that her family attend anniversary ceremonies at ground zero, and the girls go to an overnight camp every summer for 9/11 kids. Indeed, experts and parents talk about how therapeutic it is for 9/11 kids to be around each other. Losing their loved ones at the same moment, in the same way, creates an indelible bond.

Brianna and Shannon attend Camp Better Days, a one-week overnight camp for children who lost loved ones on Sept. 11. “You can’t escape the world, but you can at camp,” says Brianna, who excitedly tells me about all of the activities — movies under the stars, 1980s night — that she gets to do at Better Days. “At camp I feel good because everyone there has been through the same thing.” Shannon, who needs her mother to stay with her until she falls asleep when she is at home, has been attending camp for four years. It is the one place where she feels independent — even safe.

As Louise, Jay and I continue to talk, with the girls hovering nearby, Jay says he tries to provide as much fun and escape for Brianna and Shannon as possible, taking them fishing, to amusement parks, on bike rides. “Kids shouldn’t endure any type of pain,” he says. “I don’t try to distract them, but why should they be thinking about bin Laden or what Bush is saying? I don’t think they need to be involved with that.”

The Yaskulkas are no longer in family therapy, deciding instead to work together to try to solve their problems and transcend the anguish of the last five years. “Our therapy now is talking to each other,” says Jay. “We have each other.”

Invariably, when the subject of 9/11 surfaces, he strives to keep the focus on his mother. To his family, Sept. 11 is entirely personal. “I know people whose life is 9/11 stuff, but I couldn’t do that,” he says. “We don’t talk about it so much as something that happened to thousands of people. We talk about her.” And all the things they love about her. Jay wears a silver cuff memorial bracelet with Myrna’s name engraved on it, his way of keeping her memory alive. On Myrna’s birthday, for three years after her death, the girls baked a cake and sang “Happy Birthday.” They bought helium balloons and attached notes to them to send up to heaven. “By doing things like that, we accentuate the positive,” says Louise. “Did 9/11 rob them of some of their childhood? Yes. But I don’t want them to take life as gloom and doom. They have a lifetime to worry about the crises in the world.”

New York Times Magazine: Antagonistic interviewer Deborah Solomon accuses Bitch co-editor Andi Zeisler and other feminists born in the ’70s of being “trapped in a pop-culture bubble.” Zeisler more than holds her own.

Los Angeles Times: Brace yourself before reading this chilling profile of “Girls Gone Wild” founder Joe Francis, in which he violently simulates an attack on a female reporter, then calls her editor to complain about what a cunt she is.

More Los Angeles Times: The California Labor Federation votes to oppose Proposition 85, which would direct doctors to notify the parents of minors seeking abortions.

Detroit Free Press: Reports of boys molested by women are on the rise.

But the single most significant reason these men remain unattached is “because the pool of women in their social circles — those without college degrees — has shrunk,” according to the Times. “And the dwindling pool of women in this category often look for a mate with more education and hence better financial prospects.” As Shenia Rudolph, 42, from the Bronx said succinctly, “Men don’t marry because women like myself don’t need to rely on them.”

Broadsheet reader Sandra Miller notes the difference in tone between the Times article and, say, the widely debunked “a single 40-year-old white woman is more likely to be killed by a terrorist” article that ran in Newsweek in 1986. “The tone of the [New York Times] article was distinctly different from pieces in days past featuring lower rates of marriage by women — no terrorist statistics were trotted out. No whiff of desperation. The guys were portrayed as keeping busy, self-actualized, and more or less happy and content with their lives while hoping for the right gal to someday come along,” writes Miller. “No mention of women abandoning these men for younger, more beautiful specimens. No interviews by women that concretize the notion that these men have no hope to marry because life has passed them by, and they were too busy focused on the wrong things while they were most marriageable and now they only have the booby prize of lifelong, Cliff Claven bachelorhood to look forward to.”

Anyone else notice that?

While FFL probably won’t be canvassing Broadsheet readers for said ideas, let’s hash some out anyway just for fun. The group claims they want to use the site to keep the memory of Susan B. Anthony alive” and “renew interest in the early American feminists.” In what ways could they do that?

And here’s another question I’ve been thinking about: If like me, you’re entirely skeptical of a feminist organization that doesn’t support the right to abortion, are there ways that women on both sides of the abortion debate can and should come together to champion other causes that are important to women?

Women post to the site accusing men of everything from serious crimes such as sleeping with young girls to minor annoyances like spending too much time playing video games. A recent post is typical of the kind of trash talking that goes on: “At first, I thought he was my great legionary in shining leather but he turned out to be just a manwhore, sticking his turgid manmeat in any cavernous hole he can find. All he ever does is get drunk and pass out on my stairs.” (The site does offer accused men the opportunity to respond to their critics).

Some legal bloggers are debating whether Joseph and her site are protected by the Communications Decency Act, which, according to People, “exempts Web masters from responsibility for displaying others’ comments.” But there are also some tricky ethical considerations. One blogger called the site “deplorable” and thinks it should be shut down immediately, while other people might argue that it is a great service for women, in the vein of Holla Back NYC.

What do you think?