Amanda Griscom Little

Murray and officials from the Schwarzenegger administration then went back to the drawing board and devised a new and improved (or at least more broadly palatable) Million Solar Roofs Initiative that contains no mandate and that has been broadened to stimulate solar not only in the residential sector but also on commercial and municipal buildings. It was appealing enough to conservatives that GOP state Sen. John Campbell agreed to cosponsor it, creating an unusual political alliance. “Campbell is not one of these moderate eco-friendly Republicans,” Murray said. “He is an absolute right-wing fiscal conservative from the heart of Orange County. There probably isn’t another bill that we would agree on — it’s just that we both understand the logic of this.”

Schwarzenegger, Murray and Campbell have managed to summon a groundswell of bipartisan support for the bill. It sailed through the state Senate by a vote of 30-5 on June 1. But there are still significant hurdles to overcome in the Assembly, where tensions between Democrats and the governor are running higher than in the Senate, and lawmakers are considering adding a few provisions that could antagonize Republicans and kill the bill’s chance of passage.

The Assembly is expected to vote on the measure in early August, and at the moment, it’s a cliffhanger: “I’d say it’s 50-50 right now whether the bill dies as a result of these unfortunate political circumstances, or whether the state pulls together and actually passes it,” said David Hochschild, policy director of the California-based Vote Solar Initiative.

The ambiguity surrounding the bill’s fate is more than a little agonizing for the solar advocates and enviro groups that see it as a veritable holy grail of clean-energy legislation at a time when federal-level efforts in this arena are floundering. The overwhelming rejection of the McCain-Lieberman climate amendment to the energy bill by a 60-38 vote in the Senate last Wednesday dashed any hope that Washington might soon take the lead on a forward-looking energy policy. Any aggressive action in the near future will likely have to come from the states, and California is well situated to lead the pack. “We’ve got the sixth-biggest economy in the world,” said Hochschild, “which puts us in a better position than any other state to move markets and become the cradle of the clean technologies of the future.”

The bill would add a staggering 3,000 megawatts of solar capacity in the state — equivalent to the capacity of 10 average-size coal-fired power plants or two nuke plants, and more than 30 times the current installed solar capacity. That could make California the No. 1 solar market in the world, surpassing today’s top two biggest consumers of photovoltaic technology, Germany and Japan.

Better yet, if all goes according to plan, the program would make the cost of solar power “equal to or cheaper than conventional fossil-fuel electricity in 10 years,” according to Campbell. That kind of price adjustment — a result of increased economies of scale — could have national and even global implications, transforming America’s energy landscape and making solar an even more logical choice for developing nations building up their energy systems.

Moreover, Hochschild predicts that the estimated $2 billion in subsidies that would be doled out over 10 years would result in energy-cost savings to consumers of roughly $12 billion over the 25-year life cycle of the solar panels installed under the program. A surcharge on electricity bills would subsidize a rebate program to make solar installations more affordable for consumers. The rebates would be gradually phased out over a decade, with incentives declining each year to encourage investments up front and stimulate economies of scale.

The program is based on a financing model that’s already proved successful in Japan. In 1994, the Japanese government launched a 10-year subsidies program by paying 50 percent of the cost of every solar installation; now it is paying only 3 percent, and the subsidies are due to be completely phased out by the end of the year. “They’ve managed to reduce the average cost of a residential solar system by 72 percent in a decade,” Hochschild said, “and built a robust solar industry that now dominates the global market.”

If California achieves similar success, it could reap even greater financial benefits from the program than Japan has, given its prodigious solar resources: On average, the state gets 25 percent more sunlight annually than Japan, and 40 percent more than Germany, the current top consumer of solar.

A battery of industry, environment, public-interest, and religious groups have thrown their weight behind the legislation, ranging from Shell Oil to the American Lung Association to a statewide coalition of nearly 300 churches. Robert Redford, Edward Norton and other celebrity greens are also enthusiastically endorsing the effort. “It has more support than any other bill in history,” Murray said.

And yet, perhaps not quite enough to overcome one big hurdle.

“The political climate in Sacramento right now is contentious, and that could pose a problem,” Campbell said. In other words, Million Solar Roofs could become a pawn in the political skirmish. “The initiative has the governor’s imprimatur on it, so some worry that Democrats will shoot it down simply because it would be seen as a big victory for the governor,” said Ed Smeloff, an executive at Sharp’s California-based U.S. solar division and a strong advocate for the legislation. And at a time when Schwarzenegger’s popularity has been dropping precipitously — a poll out this week put his approval rating at an all-time low of 37 percent — this is a victory he sorely needs.

Democrats accuse Schwarzenegger of creating a combative climate, most recently by calling for a special election in November to get the public to vote on a series of budget- and education-related provisions that the Legislature has rejected yet the governor is determined to pass. “He has gone out of his way to antagonize us,” said Assemblymember Mark Leno, a Democrat from San Francisco. “This special election is just one more barrier that the governor has created in developing any kind of positive relationship with the Legislature. On top of the fact that he has called us thieves, children, untrustworthy, evil and girlie men.”

Then there are concerns about some inconsistencies in Schwarzenegger’s environmental policies. For instance, the governor and the director of his energy commission, Joe Desmond, recently backed plans for a major transmission line from the interior West to California to pipe in cheap coal-powered electricity — an initiative that contradicts the governor’s purported clean-energy goals. It failed to generate needed support in the Legislature.

But the biggest sticking point for the solar legislation could prove to be a dispute over labor issues. Unions are now putting heavy pressure on liberal Democrats in the Assembly to add a provision to the Million Solar Roofs bill that would stipulate a prevailing-wage requirement for the technicians installing solar panels. That would increase the labor cost of installation by 30 to 40 percent, according to Campbell’s office. “Prevailing wage is the single biggest threat to the bill,” Campbell told Muckraker. “I’m telling you it won’t get Republican support if Democrats succumb to union pressure to add that provision.”

Hochschild believes the prevailing-wage controversy is a trivial distraction from the far-reaching ambitions of the bill, but also a symptom of the bigger problem: the threat of partisan tensions unraveling bipartisan coalitions. “Based on its own merits, this initiative would sail through. But partisan bickering and bipartisan support have become the two defining themes of Million Solar Roofs,” he said. “It’s like the little devil sitting on one of California’s shoulders, and the angel on the other. And the question is, which one will win out?”

Campbell and Murray, the bill’s cosponsors, are placing their bets on the angel. “I’m optimistic,” Campbell said. Murray is too, arguing that the initiative would go down in history as a victory for the Democrats as well as for the governor. “I’ve got to believe that we’ll get over our differences to pass this thing,” he said. “Much as I’m probably opposed to everything else that has come out of [Schwarzenegger's] mouth, this is something we’ve been able to see eye to eye on. The governor came our direction on this — he’s a Republican who is supporting a bill that subsidizes a new environmental program! This is one of those things that in the end if you’re a Democrat and you don’t support it, there is simply no justification.”

A vegan who counts Ralph Nader among his heroes, Kucinich doesn’t exactly embody the sensibility of the average American. He says his commitment to sustainability “extends to everything I am and do” — from the food he eats and clothes he wears to the policies he espouses. It’s the same progressive platform that made him a darling of the far left when he ran for president in 2004. Will it take him any farther this time around?

I reached Kucinich by phone at his home in Ohio.

For more information on his platform and record, check out Grist’s Kucinich fact sheet.

Why should voters consider you the strongest green candidate?

Because mostly our candidates aren’t going to be able to do anything about the underlying issues that threaten our environment. Many of the candidates — [John] Edwards, [Barack] Obama and [Hillary] Clinton — are heavily funded by hedge funds on Wall Street, which are driven by a psychology of short-term profits and investments. And with candidates taking that kind of money from those interests, it defies belief that they’re going to be in a position to take this country in the direction it needs to be taken.

What sets your green platform apart from the rest?

As president of the United States, I’m going to shift the entire direction of America. We need to see the connection between global warring and global warming, and it’s oil. Sustainability is the path to peace. And I’m the only true peace candidate in this election. So peace means being in harmony with nature. If you’re in harmony with nature, you don’t exploit nature. You don’t ruin the land, you don’t extract the oil, you don’t take the coal out of the earth.

My underlying philosophy is a green philosophy. It means that I’m looking at a total reorganization of the federal government to create a cooperative and synergistic relationship between all departments and administrations for the purpose of greening America.

You propose, for instance, the Works Green Administration.

The Works Green Administration harks back to the days of Franklin Roosevelt and the Works Progress Administration, where he put millions of people back to work rebuilding America’s infrastructure. I too have an infrastructure-rebuilding program which will put millions of people back to work. Picture this: You take every area of involvement in the federal government — whether it’s the Small Business Administration, or the Housing and Urban Development Department, or the Department of Agriculture, or the Department of Labor. Each would incorporate green goals. We’d have billions of dollars loaned to the states at zero interest for green development programs; we’d have programs furthering green housing; agricultural policies would relate to green.

Do you think Americans are ready to answer the call to conserve?

Of course they are. They’re just waiting for leadership, and it has to come from somebody who’s not tied to any of these interest groups, or is worried about whether he’s going to offend a contributor. And so, yes, I think people know that their future’s at stake.

What I intend to do as president is to call forth that instinct which is within every person for not just survival but to be able to thrive. We need to make the connection between prosperity and sustainability. It also means we have to turn toward peace, we have to stop warring, because war is ecocide, war destroys the environment. And so I’m going to call forth the people of this country for a whole new direction. I think America’s not just ready for it, it’s overdue and people know that.

I will also ask the American people to participate in a grand and great conservation effort. Imagine if tens of millions of homes suddenly had an awareness that when you don’t need the electricity, don’t flip the switch. That you use only the water that you need and you don’t use any more — you don’t let the faucet run.

Do you believe that we need a carbon tax in addition to a cap-and-trade program, or neither, or both?

We need to do whatever we can do to create disincentives for the use of carbon-based energy. But that’s not enough. Carbon-based taxes alone won’t cut it because some people may be willing to pay an extra tax to use something that’s bad for the environment. Inevitably we need a requirement to move away from all carbon-based technologies and to fund fully all alternative-energy research that is in harmony with the environment.

So you would propose a strict cap on carbon emissions, a carbon tax and a massive government-supported plan to promote renewable technologies?

Yes, but I’d want to put the emphasis first on the government supporting renewable technologies. A tax could reflect the full cost to society of certain types of energy. But the answer is not simply punishing those people who are using carbons. You have to do everything you can to move people toward renewable energy.

You’ve been calling for years for a renewable portfolio standard that would have the U.S. get 20 percent of its electricity from renewables by 2010. Now that 2010 is around the corner, what sort of RPS plan would you implement as president?

Well, obviously we’ve lost the advantage of that particular time frame. For the next time frame, I think we could set something by 2020 and look to 30 or 40 percent. But that means we’re talking about a very sharp turnaround here.

How would you shift the utility industry toward renewables, toward this whole new paradigm?

One of my proposals is to have millions of homes with wind and solar technologies, and people can sell energy back to the grid. The role of utilities will change dramatically because it’s not going to be a centralized approach toward energy production. They’ll have to figure out different ways that they might be able to provide support for green alternatives. I want to see, eventually, all the homes in this country have the option of that technology. In turn, you can create millions of jobs building alternative technologies.

Would nuclear power play any role in your energy policy as president?

Nuclear has to be phased out. The hidden costs of nuclear are enormous — of building these plants and storing the waste forever. It’s not financially or environmentally sustainable.

Nuclear makes up 20 percent of America’s electricity supply. What would you replace this with?

You don’t want to leave a gap in our energy needs, but at the same time, with a program of conservation and movement toward alternative energy, we can begin phasing out nuclear.

What about coal, the source of more than half of our electricity supply? Would you phase that out, or do you believe in the promise of advanced coal technologies?

No, coal has to be phased out. In the same way that the Department of Agriculture for years was paying some farmers not to grow, I think we can get to the point of paying coal miners not to mine. Why should the miners have to suffer from the lack of foresight of our energy policies? That’s something that I intend to address in my Works Green Administration.

The electric utility industry would argue that such a massive shift would pass along huge rate hikes to consumers. How would you protect Americans from these expenses?

We do not need to be held hostage by the utility industry. I’m not someone who’s going to roll over when these utility industries issue their threats. We’re going to break up the monopolies in utilities; that’s No. 1. No. 2, these utilities are going to be closely regulated for their activities. No. 3, they’re going to be required to go green as license conditions. No. 4, they’re going to be closely monitored and shut down if they violate the Clean Air Act. We’re going to have a very aggressive Environmental Protection Agency, and utilities are not going to be dictating energy costs. I don’t mind working with them, I don’t mind moving toward areas where they can be cooperative in protecting the environment, but they’re not going to run energy policy.

But such a transition would create huge costs. How would you pay for them?

It pays for itself. See, the whole idea about sustainability is that you conserve, you save and then you use the savings for other things. However, where we need financial incentives, this is where the government can play a major role in putting money into circulation for the production of these [green] products, and in putting people to work. Roosevelt understood in the ’30s that there were things he had to do to move the economy. And I understand what we need to do to move the economy in a green direction.

Do you support subsidies for ethanol or other gasoline alternatives, like biodiesel?

I don’t know about subsidies. I think those technologies are transitional to fuel-cell technology. I wouldn’t want to create incentives to lock us into usages that are not where we ultimately want to go. And there is a serious issue with ethanol and its impact on food supplies.

Many argue that the U.S. shouldn’t commit to a global greenhouse-gas reduction target that doesn’t involve China and India. Do you agree, and how would you bring them to the table?

First of all, as president, I’m going to let the rest of the world know that the days of America trying to be a nation above nations is over. We have to quit trying to dominate other countries, and we have to step out of our isolation and into the brotherhood and sisterhood of all people. I think the world is ready for an American president who puts the sword down, so that nations won’t have to spend a tremendous amount of their resources trying to prepare for war.

We have to be ready to take the lead, but we need to have harmony with other nations. As president, I intend to work with the leaders of China and India and other nations to promote an environmental consciousness and sustainable economies. I will use trade as a vehicle to try to raise the level of living for all people, and environmental sustainability must be the watchword. All of our trade agreements must have within them requirements for protecting the air and the water and the land of all the countries we do business with.

After climate and energy, what do you think is the most important environmental issue facing the nation?

Agriculture — the way we grow our food — and we really need to make sure that we protect our water supply. These issues are closely tied to each other.

Who is your environmental hero?

Oh, I have many. Thomas Berry, whose book “The Great Work” talked about how our great work in life is to achieve a real harmony with the environment. I think Lester Brown has done some incredible work on raising the consciousness of people. Amory Lovins has done some excellent work, and I think Ralph Nader has pointed to a lot of the environmental implications of corporate conduct and trade laws. And John Robbins has been so incredible in his awareness of the impact of the food we eat on our environment.

What was your most memorable wilderness or outdoor adventure?

As a child, we lived in the city, we moved around a lot. But there was one place we lived, above railroad tracks, and on the other side of the tracks was this vast acreage called “the gulley” that was created with the blasting of the railroad. It had these huge rock piles and vegetation everywhere and it almost looked prehistoric. It was a place that I would go to often and find solitude and be able to just think. So much of my own life has been connected with a desire to be close to nature, to be close to the water, to be close to green.

If you could spend a week in one natural area of the U.S., where would it be?

I would say somewhere in northern Maine. The whole state is beautiful, but northern Maine is just extraordinary, and I’ve seen all 50 states. I also love Maui.

What do you do to lighten your environmental footprint?

My philosophy of life extends to everything I am and do. If I say I’m for peace, I’m for peace in the kind of products that I use, in the kind of shoes that I wear, and in terms of the clothes that I wear, in terms of my eating habits. I’m always thinking in terms of sustainability. That’s the way I live. I live in a small house and we’re very conscious of our energy usage. I drive an American car, a Ford Focus, but it’s one of the highest fuel-economy cars.

I’ve been living an essentially vegan lifestyle since 1995, and that has led me to a condition of extraordinary health and clarity. Now, I’m not, as president, going to tell everyone what they have to eat, but I will share my own story about how the choices that I’ve made have meant, for myself, a better life, and a happier life. I’m 60 years old, but I’ll bet that I’m in better physical shape than a lot of people a lot younger.

If George Bush were a plant or an animal, what kind of plant or an animal would he be?

I don’t want to go there.

Fair enough. Would you spin it around on yourself? If you were a plant or animal, what kind would you be?

An eagle.

How so? Truly American?

No. Keenness of vision.

This article is part of a series of interviews with presidential candidates produced jointly by Grist and Outside.

Some of those ideas arguably have environmental merit. Paul is known for his zealous opposition to the Iraq war, which he duly notes causes pollution and the “burning of fuel for no good purpose.” He wants to yank all subsidies and R&D funding from the energy sector, which many believe would benefit the growth of renewables. A cyclist himself, he has cosponsored bills that would offer tax breaks to Americans who commute by bicycle and use public transportation. Still, his libertarian presidency would, among other things, allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, boost the use of coal, and embrace nuclear power. Moreover, it wouldn’t do diddly about global warming because, Paul reasons, “we’re not going to be very good at regulating the weather.”

I called Paul up on the campaign trail in Iowa to get the skinny on how the environment figures into his small-government agenda.

For more info on his platform and record, check out this Paul fact sheet.

What makes you the strongest candidate on energy and the environment?

On energy, I would say that the reliance on the government to devise a policy is a fallacy. I would advocate that the free market take care of that. The government shouldn’t be directing research and development because they are bound and determined to always misdirect money to political cronies. The government ends up subsidizing things like the corn industry to develop ethanol and it turns out that it’s not economically feasible. So, my answer to energy is to let the market work. Let supply and demand make the decision. Let prices make the decision. That is completely different than the bureaucratic and cronyism approach.

On environment, governments don’t have a good reputation for doing a good job protecting the environment. If you look at the extreme of socialism or communism, they were very poor environmentalists. Private property owners have a much better record of taking care of the environment. If you look at the common ownership of the lands in the West, they’re much more poorly treated than those that are privately owned. In a free-market system, nobody is permitted to pollute their neighbor’s private property — water, air, or land. It is very strict.

But there are realms of the environment that, by definition, can’t be owned, right? How would you divide the sky or the sea into private parcels?

The air can certainly be identified. If you have a mill next door to me, you don’t have a right to pollute my air — that can be properly defined by property rights. Water: if you’re on a river you certainly can define it, if you’re on a lake you certainly can define it. Even oceans can be defined by international agreements. You can be very strict with it. If it is air that crosses a boundary between Canada and the United States, you would have to have two governments come together, voluntarily solving these problems.

Can you elaborate on when government intervention is and isn’t appropriate?

Certainly, any time there’s injury to another person, another person’s land, or another person’s environment, there’s [legal] recourse with the government.

What do you see as the role of the Environmental Protection Agency?

You wouldn’t need it. Environmental protection in the U.S. should function according to the same premise as “prior restraint” in a newspaper. Newspapers can’t print anything that’s a lie. There has to be recourse. But you don’t invite the government in to review every single thing that the print media does with the assumption they might do something wrong. The EPA assumes you might do something wrong; it’s a bureaucratic, intrusive approach and it favors those who have political connections.

Would you dissolve the EPA?

It’s not high on my agenda. I’m trying to stop the war, and bring back a sound economy, and solve the financial crises, and balance the budget.

Is it appropriate for the government to regulate toxic or dangerous materials, like lead in children’s toys?

If a toy company is doing something dangerous, they’re liable and they should be held responsible. The government should hold them responsible, but not be the inspector. The government can’t inspect every single toy that comes into the country.

So you see it as the legal system that brings about environmental protection?

Right. Some of this stuff can be handled locally with a government. I was raised in the city of Pittsburgh. It was the filthiest city in the country because it was a steel town. You couldn’t even see the sun on a sunny day. Then it was cleaned up — not by the EPA, by local authorities that said you don’t have a right to pollute — and the government cleaned it up and the city’s a beautiful city. You don’t need this huge bureaucracy that’s remote from the problem. Pittsburgh dealt with it in a local fashion and it worked out quite well.

What if you’re part of a community that’s getting dumped on, but you don’t have the time or the money to sue the offending polluter?

Imagine that everyone living in one suburb, rather than using regular trash service, were taking their household trash to the next town over and simply tossing it in the yards of those living in the nearby town. Is there any question that legal mechanisms are in place to remedy this action? In principle, your concerns are no different, except that, for a good number of years, legislatures and courts have failed to enforce the property rights of those being dumped on with respect to certain forms of pollution. This form of government failure has persisted since the industrial revolution when, in the name of so-called progress, certain forms of pollution were legally tolerated or ignored to benefit some popular regional employer or politically popular entity.

When all forms of physical trespass, be that smoke, particulate matter, etc., are legally recognized for what they are — a physical trespass upon the property and rights of another — concerns about difficulty in suing the offending party will be largely diminished. When any such cases are known to be slam-dunk wins for the person whose property is being polluted, those doing the polluting will no longer persist in doing so. Against a backdrop of property rights actually enforced, contingency and class-action cases are additional legal mechanisms that resolve this concern.

You mentioned that you don’t support subsidies for the development of energy technologies. If all subsidies were removed from the energy sector, what do you think would happen to alternative energy industries like solar, wind, and ethanol?

Whoever can offer the best product at the best price, that’s what people will use. They just have to do this without damaging the environment.

If we’re running out of hydrocarbon, the price will go up. If we had a crisis tomorrow [that cut our oil supply in half], people would drive half as much — something would happen immediately. Somebody would come up with alternative fuels rather quickly.

Today, the government decides, and they misdirect the investment to their friends in the corn industry or the food industry. Think how many taxpayer dollars have been spent on corn [for ethanol], and there’s nobody now really defending that as an efficient way to create diesel fuel or ethanol. The money is spent for political reasons and not for economic reasons. It’s the worst way in the world to try to develop an alternative fuel.

But often the cheapest energy sources, which the market would naturally select for, are also the most environmentally harmful. How would you address this?

Your question is based on a false premise and a false definition of “market” that is quite understandable under the current legal framework. A true market system would internalize the costs of pollution on the producer. In other words, the “cheapest energy sources,” as you call them, are only cheap because currently the costs of the environmental harm you identify are not being included or internalized, as economists would say, into the cheap energy sources.

To the extent property rights are strictly enforced against those who would pollute the land or air of another, the costs of any environmental harm associated with an energy source would be imposed upon the producer of that energy source, and, in so doing, the cheap sources that pollute are not so cheap anymore.

What’s your take on global warming? Is it a serious problem and one that’s human-caused?

I think some of it is related to human activities, but I don’t think there’s a conclusion yet. There’s a lot of evidence on both sides of that argument. If you study the history, we’ve had a lot of climate changes. We’ve had hot spells and cold spells. They come and go. If there are weather changes, we’re not going to be very good at regulating the weather.

To assume we have to close down everything in this country and in the world because there’s a fear that we’re going to have this global warming and that we’re going to be swallowed up by the oceans, I think that’s extreme. I don’t buy into that. Yet, I think it’s a worthy discussion.

So you don’t consider climate change a major problem threatening civilization?

No. [Laughs.] I think war and financial crises and big governments marching into our homes and elimination of habeas corpus — those are immediate threats. We’re about to lose our whole country and whole republic! If we can be declared an enemy combatant and put away without a trial, then that’s going to affect a lot of us a lot sooner than the temperature going up.

What, if anything, do you think the government should do about global warming?

They should enforce the principles of private property so that we don’t emit poisons and contribute to it.

And, if other countries are doing it, we should do our best to try to talk them out of doing what might be harmful. We can’t use our army to go to China and dictate to China about the pollution that they may be contributing. You can only use persuasion.

You have voiced strong opposition to the Kyoto Protocol. Can you see supporting a different kind of international treaty to address global warming?

It would all depend. I think negotiation and talk and persuasion are worthwhile, but treaties that have law enforcement agencies that force certain countries to do things, I don’t think that would work.

You believe that ultimately private interests will solve global warming?

I think they’re more capable of it than politicians.

What’s your position on a carbon tax?

I don’t like that. That’s sort of legalizing pollution. If it’s wrong, you can buy these permits, so to speak. It’s wrong to do it. It shouldn’t be allowed.

Do you think it should be illegal to emit harmful pollutants?

You should be held responsible in a court of law, and you should be able to be closed down if you’re damaging your neighbor’s property in any way whatsoever.

Who would set the law about what pollutants could and couldn’t be emitted? Congress?

Not under my presidency — the Congress wouldn’t do it. The people who claim damage would have to say, look, I’m sitting here, and these poisons are coming over, and I can prove it, and I want it stopped, and I want compensation.

You’ve described your opposition to wars for oil as an example of your support for eco-friendly policies. Can you elaborate?

Generally speaking, war causes pollution — uranium, burning of fuel for no good purpose. The Pentagon burns more fuel than the whole country of Sweden.

Do you support the goal of energy independence in the U.S.?

Sure. But independence does not mean to me that we produce everything. I don’t believe governments have to provide every single ounce of energy. I see independence as having no government-mandated policy: If you need oil or energy, you can buy it.

What about being independent from the Middle East, so we’re not buying oil from hostile countries?

I think it’s irrelevant. We wouldn’t be buying it directly, we would be buying it on the world market. I don’t think the goal has to be that we produce alternative fuel so that we never buy oil from the Middle East. The goal should be to provide all useful services and goods through a market mechanism instead of central economic planning or world planning. That system doesn’t work.

What role do you think coal should play in America’s energy future?

Coal is a source of energy and it should be used, but it has to be used without ever hurting anybody. I think we’re smart enough to do it. Technology is improving all the time. If oil goes to $150 a barrel because we’ve bombed Iran, coal might be something that we can become more independent with. I think technology is super, and we are capable of knowing how to use coal without polluting other people’s property.

But coal technology has been proven to harm people — with poisons like mercury and asthma-causing particulates — so should old-style coal plants be allowed to continue operating?

Use of the technology I mentioned to prevent harm to people, even if it costs more for the coal producer, is another example of how costs must be internalized to the energy source. To the extent coal can be efficiently produced in a way that does not pollute another’s property or another’s physical body, it will be chosen as a viable energy source. Certainly no producer of energy or anything else has a right to pollute or harm another’s property or person.

If coal is not competitively priced when all costs to keep production safe are internalized to the producer, then coal will not be purchased or produced. I do not happen to believe this will be the case, but it is for the market to sort out, not politicians in Washington. It may be that, from time to time, as other energy sources become scarce, “safe coal” will be viable even if it is not at some other point in time.

What’s your take on nuclear?

I think nuclear is great. I think it’s the safest form of energy we have.

Ethanol?

I don’t think anything’s wrong with ethanol — it’s just not economically competitive. It’s only competitive now because those who produce it get subsidies.

What environmental achievement are you most proud of?

Nothing really special, other than trying to explain to people that you don’t need government expenditures and special-interest politics to promote safe, environmental types of energy. That comes about through a free-market system and a lot less government, and I think that’s the most important thing I can contribute.

If you could spend a week in a park or natural area in the United States, where would it be?

There’s probably hundreds of places. I probably have gone to Colorado more than any place, around Telluride and Ouray.

Can you describe your connection to the natural world? Have you had any memorable outdoor or wilderness adventures?

My favorite thing is riding bicycles, and at home my hobby is raising tomatoes. I live on the San Bernard River in Texas, and I belong to an environmental group that works very, very hard to protect the natural aspects of that river.

Can you elaborate on what you’ve done personally to reduce your energy and environmental impact?

Well, no, other than the fact that I’m just always aware of doing anything damaging to the environment. I don’t think I do anything that damages it at all. I don’t ride my bike because I think I’m destroying the environment by driving my car; I ride it because it’s a great way to be outdoors and enjoy the environment.

A conservative Republican and devout Christian, Huckabee believes he has a biblical responsibility to protect God’s planet from climate change, even though he’s not convinced that climate change is largely human-caused. But mandatory limits on greenhouse-gas emissions make him squeamish.

I called Huckabee up in Iowa to find out how his ideas are playing on the campaign trail.

For more info on his platform and record, check out this Huckabee fact sheet.

What makes you the strongest Republican candidate on the issues of energy and the environment?

For one thing, I’m one of the few people who’s actually talked about the fact that as Republicans we have done a lousy job of presenting the case for conservation. We ought to be the leaders, but unfortunately we’ve been the last people speaking out on conservation.

Not only as a Republican, but as a Christian it’s important to me to say to my fellow believers, “Look, if anybody ought to be leading on this issue, it ought to be us.” We can’t justify destroying a planet that doesn’t belong to us, and if we believe that God did create this world for our pleasure and wants us to enjoy it, then all the more reason that we should take care of it.

You’ve vowed in your presidential platform to achieve energy independence by your second term. What inspired this stand?

A country is not free if it can’t produce three things for itself — its own food, its own fuel, and its own fighting apparatus. If we depend on someone else for those things, then we are at the mercy of those producing states. That’s why energy independence is not only an environmental and economic concern, but an urgent national-security priority. If we didn’t have any dependence on oil from the Middle East or even from Venezuela or Russia, we would not be nearly so worried about what’s happening in those countries. We’re desperately tied up in making sure that their stability is, in essence, our stability.

How would you achieve energy independence by your second term?

The key is to create the kind of unbridled marketplace that turns innovators loose to find the solutions. I don’t think we’re going to find one big answer. I think it’s going to be a combination of many that will include hydrogen, solar, wind, nuclear, domestically produced fossil fuels — at least for the short term. Our goal is to be nondependent upon fossil fuels, but there will be an interim period in which we’ll need to utilize all the domestic oil that we can generate by ourselves, whether it’s from ANWR or the continental shelf.

What role will coal technologies play, including liquefied coal?

I think there’s a place for it, and I think we need to insist that it’s clean coal. What we don’t need is another generation of coal that has serious polluting consequences.

Agricultural-based fuels are very important to me because they’re renewable and help create some stability in the agriculture economy of the United States.

Hydrogen has great potential. I recently visited a hydrogen plant in Iowa — they derive hydrogen-based fuel from ammonia. The technology is still somewhat challenging to make affordable, but it’s a relatively simple process. We could accelerate our ability to make it more cost-efficient.

Do you think we need to expand the role of nuclear power in the U.S.?

Absolutely. France is almost completely nuclear, and it’s not like they’re a nation given to risky behaviors. There’s been a real bias against nuclear energy in the United States, going all the way back to Three Mile Island in 1979, but I think most of it is unfounded. I mean, we’ve been running nuclear submarines for 60 years without accidents.

What would you do about the problem of storing nuclear waste?

I recognize that’s the sticky part. Everybody wants the benefits of nuclear energy, but nobody wants the storage of the nuclear material in their own backyard. Part of it is you have to make it economically viable for somebody to actually receive it. But a lot of it is changing attitudes, educating the public that nuclear byproducts can be disposed of safely, because the first reaction people have is, “Our kids are going to glow in the dark if we put that stuff in our state.” That’s not the case.

You mentioned your support for ethanol and other biofuels. Do you think we’ll need to transition from corn-derived ethanol to the more energy-efficient varieties, like cellulosic?

I think that makes sense. I think there’s still going to be a place for corn to be a part of it. What we need to be doing is — and I don’t think we’re all that far from it — is developing a technology that would take virtually any kind of biomass, and be able to then burn it, so that it doesn’t have to necessarily be corn-specific or rice-hull-specific. There would be different ways of processing it, and what you’re really doing is generating the energy from the biomass itself.

How would you encourage a shift toward renewable and clean industries? Would it be incentive-based? Would you have a renewable portfolio standard that requires utilities to produce a certain percentage of their power from renewable sources?

Some of both. I think that there ought to be some government grants and subsidies for those who accelerate ways to produce the energy. And I’d simply say, we’re not going to tax you for coming up with these ideas. I would eliminate all tax on productivity and replace it with a simple consumption tax.

I would also want to assemble some of the best minds in the country to make sure that we set goals that really challenge us. I think the problem is we’ve not set challenging goals. We’ve got a lot of leaders who only want to take on issues that they can solve in their own first term so they can get reelected. We need to be looking at things in the same way John F. Kennedy looked at the space program and said, “We’ll put a man on the moon within a decade.”

Do you think we need to increase auto fuel-economy standards to help achieve your energy-independence goal?

I’m not opposed to it, but I don’t honestly know what the standards should be. That’s where I’d want to get some scientific advice on what we can achieve. You don’t want to do something that’s going to completely wreck the current economy. But I also think we need to do some serious pushing. We need to get to the place so that within a decade we can tell the Saudi royal family that we’re no longer going to continue to make them obscenely wealthy with our purchase of their oil. Frankly, much of that wealth ends up coming back to finance terrorism.

You often invoke your faith when talking about environmental stewardship. How are these two issues connected for you?

This world doesn’t belong to me. I’m a guest here. I don’t have a right to abuse it, any more than I have a right to abuse someone else’s property if they were to let me stay in their apartment for a weekend. It’s a sin against future generations for me to act as if there are no future generations that should enjoy the world as I do.

I love the outdoors. We have a beautiful, magnificent world: rivers and streams and mountains. I find myself overwhelmed when I look at it. I want my great-great-great-grandchildren to one day go out and smell the same fresh air, fish in wonderful streams, and be able to see the same mountains I see. I sure don’t want them to have it in worse shape and wonder why I didn’t do a better job of handing it down to them.

Do you believe that human beings are the primary drivers of climate change?

The honest answer is I don’t know. And for me, that’s not the issue. Instead of being wrapped into this political discussion of “Is there global warming, and who caused it?” what we need to be saying is, “Look, let’s agree that we all have responsibility to present a better planet to the next generation.” Whether or not you want to believe that it’s caused by driving to work, let’s agree that we need to take better care of the planet. Being a conservationist is the proper way to live, whether there is human-based global warming or not.

How would you go about reducing greenhouse-gas emissions?

I think there’s several things we can do — for example, replace light bulbs with the fluorescent types. We need to shoot for less fossil fuel, go to more energy-efficient and certainly non-carbon-producing methods of energy.

Do you think that voluntary efforts are enough, or do we need to impose mandatory emissions reductions?

Hopefully it can be a combination. I’m always concerned when someone mentions mandatory, because I think that there’s going to be a government-imposed restriction on a lot of our lifestyle choices. What really ought to happen is, when we start developing a different kind of energy economy, it will evolve rather quickly.

What role should the U.S. play in crafting a new international climate-change agreement?

I think the best role that we can play is by the example we set and by many of the market changes that we can make. When people start making a lot of money off alternative fuels and fuel-efficient vehicles and energy sources, you can rest assured that people are going to gravitate toward it. That’s got to be our goal, and it’s got to be an urgent one.

The U.S. consumes far more energy per capita than other countries. Do you believe that we have a moral obligation to take the global lead in curbing our energy use and CO2 emissions?

I certainly think we ought to be mindful, but I have to be careful here because I don’t think the government needs to start telling people we’re going to limit how many hours a day you can run your fan, or whether or not you can plug in your television set. I’d like to believe that people would start thinking that it’s their responsibility to do it. But I don’t know that I want the government telling me, “I’m sorry, you can’t drive that kind of car.” I have a flex-fuel vehicle right now; I very well may buy a hybrid, but I don’t want the government telling me I have to.

What about the government saying, “Hey, electricity industry: You need to find a way to create that same energy with lower emissions?”

I’m open to that, and I think that’s a worthy kind of goal. Maybe it’s an incentive, where they have lower tax burdens if they find ways to cut the cost of production.

What do you think is the most pressing environmental issue facing the nation, if not climate change?

I think the issue of pollution of the water, air and soil, because that affects everything in our overall eco-structure, whether it’s our streams or our soil to produce our food. Everything that we truly treasure is better when we take care of it, and it’s truly harmed when we pollute it, when we act as if we are a one-time generation and we don’t have any obligation for the future.

What environmental achievement are you proudest of?

I campaigned for Amendment 75 of the Arkansas constitution that dedicates an eighth of a percent of sales tax for everything purchased in the state for conservation. And we’ve used that money to completely rebuild our state parks system, fight pollution, purchase thousands of acres that are now set aside to remain natural, and create friendly and affordable places for families to enjoy the outdoors. We have the responsibility to make sure that the poorest family in the state can enjoy a day in the outdoors, whether it’s hunting, fishing, hiking or camping.

Could you share a memorable outdoor adventure or natural experience?

I’ll tell you one that almost got me killed. A group of my staff and Cabinet members went on a float trip on the Buffalo River, up in north Arkansas, which is one of the most absolutely beautiful places on earth. We pulled over to have lunch, and there was this group of guys in their 20s to early 30s, and they had some elastic-type straps and they were using them as a slingshot and shooting beer cans across the river, slamming them against this huge rock wall. I just couldn’t believe this. I was appalled, because we’re very protective of the Buffalo River in Arkansas.

Before I could even think about it, I went over to those guys, who were twice my size, and I said, “Do you have any idea what the fine is for littering?” I said, “This is not just a state treasure, it’s a national river. Do you have any idea what it is?” And I said, “I’ve already taken the number of your canoe. I can find out who you are.” And they just looked at me and their eyes went like, “Who are you?” I didn’t even bother to tell them. I just said, “It’s $1,000 per incident. I’ve just seen you knock three cans against it. You’ve got two choices: You either go over there and pick up those cans, or I’m going to make sure that you get the full extent of the law.”

And finally my troopers came over, and one of the guys I was talking to said, “Well, we’ll go get them.” I was walking away, and someone asked, “Who is that guy?” And another guy said, “He’s the governor of the state.”

If you could spend a week in one park or natural area, where would it be?

Lake Greeson in Arkansas. It’s a lake my wife and I grew up on as kids and it has special meaning to us.

You’re known to be a strong fitness advocate, having lost more than 100 pounds in recent years. As president, how would you advocate better fitness nationally?

There are two basic elements to health: good nutrition and activity. We’ve got to help this country to start realizing that whole, natural foods are critical to health. I often tell people a couple of basic rules of nutrition: One is, if it wasn’t a food 100 years ago, it probably isn’t a food today. Secondly, if it comes through the car window, it isn’t food. So much of what people eat today is a chemical product that has been processed, and when you really look at what it is and read the label, you’d be better off eating the box and throwing the contents away, because the box would at least give you some fiber.

Is there a way of promoting healthier lifestyles from a federal level?

One thing is that the marketplace is moving. Every food company with whom I’ve spoken has told me that the growth of their marketplace is in the healthier food choices.

We’re not going to solve it all overnight, but we can start making a genuine transition to healthier, more whole-food products, doing more to subsidize fruits and vegetables, rather than just the processed food, and creating the appetites in children by exposing them more to fruits and vegetables at the marketplace, and the schools, and their homes and neighborhoods.

On a personal level, what have you done to lighten your environmental footprint?

We have a flex-fuel vehicle. We are changing all of the lights in our house to fluorescent. We just replaced our heating and air-conditioning systems with the highest-level SEER-rated models, so that they would run on 60 percent less energy than what we had been using. I run and enjoy the outdoors and I often ride my bicycle to the store. My kids laugh at me and call me an old geezer, but I love it. Several years ago, I would have driven.

This article is part of a series of interviews with presidential candidates produced jointly by Grist and Outside.