After I wrote a piece calling self-published authors who defend Amazon “no better than Ayn Rand libertarians,” I received a flood of social media high-fives from those within publishing, their frustration with the giant palpable. I also received fierce blowback from the self-published community. The most thorough and entertaining came from Joe Konrath, who has self-published 24 novels (three of them No. 1 Amazon sellers), hundreds of stories, and has sold over 3 million copies of his books.

He, in turn, received a flood of digital high-fives from the self-publishing community for his zingers, the pent-up frustration at what they believe is one-sided media coverage palpable.

I could have left the name-calling to the social media ether, but we rarely ever really engage with those with wildly differing opinions. I reached out to Konrath and we had the following exchange of ideas.

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Hi Joe,

Your “Fisking Salon and Rob Spillman” was the most entertaining thing I’ve read in a long time. If only some of my authors and students had the same bite, humor and energy.

I wanted to engage in a conversation. I realize this may be impossible, but as you have already established that I am a 100 percent Idiot, I thought there would be nothing to lose. You are obviously an intelligent, passionate and successful writer, so I thought we could have an actual exchange of ideas. Too often these days people with opposing opinions don’t get to actually engage each other and I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.

I believe that we do have some overlap: We both love books, reading and writers.

I did, indeed, work for Random House, when I was 22, my first job in publishing, from 1987-1988, an entry-level job where I stuffed envelopes, and which helped me figure out what I wanted to do with my life. Which was not to work in corporate publishing, but to be an advocate for independent voices. Since then I have worked in indie publishing.

As an indie publisher, I have been on the receiving end of Amazon’s tactics.

I don’t want to split hairs, go through each other’s posts line-by-line. I do, however, want to apologize if it seemed like I was dismissing self-published authors or genre writers. That was not my intention, nor is it what I believe. My intention was to point out that Amazon has been a very good platform for a large number of self-published writers, which tend to be genre writers.

One thing I want to make clear: I believe that Jeff Bezos is a genius. He has single-handedly changed the way the world shops.

His hero, Sam Walton, was also a genius. Bezos’s bible is “Sam Walton: Made in America,” Walton’s autobiography. Walton’s legacy is the big box store where very cheap products, many made in China, are readily available. His other legacy is the destruction of small town America and family-owned businesses. When I drove back roads across the U.S. last summer, small town after small town had boarded-up downtowns with a Wal-Mart and perhaps a Costco on the periphery. Those people lucky enough to have jobs were working for half the wages they used to under dehumanizing conditions (you have to purchase a uniform, at your own cost, to begin with). According to your argument, this is just the free market at work. Efficiency. The Walton heirs are now worth more than $100 billion. The U.S. now ranks 93rd in the world in income inequality. The middle class has shrunk dramatically over the past 20 years, with average salaries stuck at 1994 levels while the S&P has more than doubled in value adjusted for inflation over the same time.

Driving across the country it was hard not to also notice the death of the family farm and the triumph of corporate agribusiness. Factory farms employ one-tenth as many people as family farms, pay one-third less, and because of the concentration of livestock and chickens, as well as the overuse of antibiotics to counter the cramped conditions, are now one of the major rural polluters.

I believe that Amazon is trying to do Walton one better. With traditional publishing, $10 million in sales required 47 employees. With Amazon, the same amount requires 1 employee. Was the old way inefficient? Perhaps. Maybe I work in an obsolete world of literary fiction, creative nonfiction, and journalism. In my world, editors, copyeditors, proofreaders, book reviewers and bookstores are necessary and vital. Book advances are what fund many book-length nonfiction projects. I am also concerned about local economies being squeezed out by massive, unchecked corporations that do everything legally possible to avoid paying local and national taxes. Again, they are doing nothing legally wrong, but I would argue that there is a greater moral issue at play here.

Perhaps capitalism will come up with competition for Amazon. Adapt or die, right? That’s the free market way. But from my POV, it is hard to see how anyone can face off against a company willing to lose $100 million per year just to gain market share.

For you, Amazon is ideal. You can go direct to consumer and receive a much higher percent royalty than with traditional publishing. For me and most of my colleagues, we are being squeezed, and Amazon has massive power and endless resources.

I can see how you would cheer Amazon’s treatment of yourself and your fellow self-published authors. What I can’t understand is why you would cheer for Amazon in its fight against traditional publishers. Here comes one of my analogies that you love to pull apart — it seems like rooting for the lions against the Roman prisoners in the Coliseum. My central argument is that if Amazon crushes us all, it will be able to dictate whatever terms to anyone using its massive platform. What if it suddenly decided to flip terms and only offer you 30 percent, or decide that your books really should be sold for 50 cents? Perhaps then competition will organically form to counter this. But this new competition will be formed out of the rubble of publishing, and whatever emerges will be up against a massive, and massively funded, giant that couldn’t care less about us.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Rob Spillman

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Hi Rob —

Thanks for the kind, levelheaded email. I’m impressed by your tone, your willingness to engage, and the integrity it took to email a loudmouth jerk like me. Remember, I didn’t say you were a 100 percent idiot. Only that you were getting close to 100 percent in that Salon piece. :)

I read your email with an open mind, and agree with much of what you said, along with the sentiment behind it. I believe you’re sincere.

I also drove across country, signing at more than 1,200 bookstores in 42 states. This was only a few years ago, but I’d guess at least one-third, and possibly one-half, of those bookstores no longer exist. That saddens me. I love bookstores, and booksellers. In my novel “Dirty Martini” I thanked over 3,000 booksellers by name in the back matter.

So I understand your feelings about your cross country trip, and your feelings about Wal-Mart putting stores out of business. I don’t begrudge your feelings and opinions. They are legitimate, and defendable. But the points you make are emotional, not logical. Allow me to elucidate.

“I am also concerned about local economies being squeezed out by massive, unchecked corporations that do everything legally possible to avoid paying local and national taxes.”

This is where you begin to lose me. I know it isn’t your intent to dismiss self-published writers, but I think there’s a very good argument that Amazon has been a boon to tens (hundreds?) of thousands of authors that weren’t ever given a chance in your world, which you reference above.

We’re not talking about the Lorax saving truffula trees and brown barbaloots; I believe the innocent should be protected. But Amazon isn’t preying on the helpless. It’s dog eat dog capitalism. Whoever finds the most customers, wins. There are no laws against being a fierce competitor. Amazon is not a monopoly or a monopsony, and even if it were, that by itself isn’t illegal.

As for taxes, can you name any company, or person, that pays more taxes than it is legally obligated to pay? Don’t blame corporations for tax loopholes; blame the politicos for giving them those loopholes.

“But from my POV, it is hard to see how anyone can face off against a company willing to lose $100 million per year just to gain market share.”