Let's talk about the upcoming show. I hear you have John Edwards coming on.
John Edwards, he's been on the show a number of times, and he's the real deal. Anyone who does our show, I think it means they're not afraid to be challenged and to have to think on their feet and to be nudged out of their comfort zone. There are an awful lot of politicians who only go on places where they know they're going to get the softball treatment. But if you do our show, if you do Chris Matthews' show, to me, it says something about the confidence you have to make your case. And again, that's what the Democrats need, I think more than anything: the confidence to make the case, to say, "If I disagree with your policy, it doesn't mean I oppose the troops." If you have an exterminator come over, and he starts hitting the vermin with a hammer, individually, and you say, "I don't think this is the way we should go about this" -- you're not for the rats.
[Laughs] Right. Do you think we'll see Hillary Clinton on your show this season.
I think if they've resisted me this long, I'm not going to hold my breath.
What do you think about her as a candidate?
I think she'd make a fine president. I've never been convinced that she could win a general election. I think, in many ways, she would be the worst of both worlds for the Democrats, because she is basically a centrist. So she's going to constantly be tacking to the right. She's going to constantly be trying to fish in that pond of votes that I don't think ever bears fruit for the Democrats ... You remember John Kerry in the duck-hunting outfit, Harold Ford with the Ten Commandments?
And on Election Day he was standing there with an Elmer Fudd camouflage hunting cap, and I was like, "It's over, Harold. It's not just the [GOP commercial about] white women; it's the pandering."
Right, the pandering. So I think she's going to wind up pissing off her base, and of course she will never, ever win over that red state crowd that I guess she's going after. I can't see those people ever voting for Mrs. Blow Job.
Do you think she's evolved at all? When you look at her, do you think she's developed or matured as a candidate?
I think she's who she always was; I think people are getting to know her more. I think the more people get to know her, if she would stick to some principles, they'd really like her. Because I think she's a very effective administrator. The Clintons have a reputation for a number of things that baffles me. Yes, he's got a wandering eye, and yes, he's oversexed or whatever. But really, Bill Clinton is a policy wonk. He's the kind of guy who gets into the details of it, and so is she.
Absolutely.
Government -- they used to teach it in college. It's actually something you should study and learn and know how to do. The Republicans always run on the idea that government isn't very effective. Well, not the way you do it. But it can be effective.
Does anyone doubt that if Bill Clinton was president during the Katrina storm that he would have been on top of that? He would have been all over that situation ... He would have had the right people. He would not have slept for a week. That's the kind of guy he was.
He would have been out in a boat, getting people off the roofs.
I'm not saying there wouldn't have been problems -- it was a storm -- but as well as it could have been handled, he'd handle it. These people know how to do government; that is their passion. And it is something that can actually be done effectively.
What we're seeing with the Bush administration is that when you outsource government jobs to private contractors, both here and in Iraq, that's where the trouble is -- those are the people who are greedy and unchecked and corrupt and inefficient.
What do you feel about Barack Obama as a candidate?
Obama? What's not to like? I would never compare him to George Bush, but George Bush is a guy who got to be president without a lot of prior experience. I don't know if that's a great idea. I think Obama is very capable and very bright. But I would like to see how he does, at least in a campaign. A campaign is some measure of how a person can run a large enterprise. So I'm kind of glad we have a lot of time.
Part of me was almost disappointed that he ran. It's like if he's really all that, he won't believe the hype and he won't run. And if he does run, and he does believe the hype, he's not all that.
He's sort of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. But it's also true. Somebody who could be seduced that easily does say something about ambition. But then ambition isn't a bad thing.
In 2002, we interviewed you and you talked about liking John McCain. But you were kind of prescient, because you said if he had a shot to run again, well, maybe you'd vote for him, but you also worried that if he was ever in that situation, he might have to sell his soul to play to the base.
Look at that. What a Nostradamus I am. Well, I'm completely over John McCain now.
So his soul has been sold?
It's been sold. I gave him a lot of latitude, because I do think he's a bright guy, and I think he's got anger, which I think is a good thing. I know that's something you could throw in his face -- "How can you be president? You're angry." -- it's about time we had someone with anger. How can you not be angry, is my question.
Yeah, he's basically selling himself off in little pieces. That's exactly what George Bush's father did -- you sell a little piece here, a little piece there and a little piece there, and after a while, there's no pieces left.
I gave McCain a wide berth, because I give anyone who's sacrificed for our country the way he did a lot of latitude, because I think all things being equal, somebody who has made that kind of sacrifice deserves a lot of free passes. But there are limits, and he's passed them.
He's out of free passes. It also makes me think that he knows better than I do how ridiculous the surge is, how badly the war has been run and how unwinnable it is. What mystifies me is that he and his neocon friends at AEI were saying we need at least 40,000 troops to secure Baghdad, and then they settled for 20,000.
Even that wouldn't work. It's so over. The country is ethnically cleansing itself. It's already a partitioned country. What are we fighting for over there? Why are we fighting to keep Iraq together? Iraq has only been a country since what, 1932? That's seven years younger than Paul Newman. Why are these drawn-on-a-map borders worth one more American life? I have no clue. And I don't think he does, either.
It doesn't seem like it.
No, it's all about honor. It's that nonsense we heard in Vietnam. We've already lost our honor over there. We lost it at Abu Ghraib, and a lot of other places. The honorable thing to do would be to acknowledge our mistake and get out.
So, facing this new season, do you feel any urge to be tougher on the Democrats now that they have some measure of power back?
Absolutely! That's my job: My job is to hold people's feet to the fire, and the Democrats need a lot of holding their feet to the fire. [Laughs] A lot!
Additional research by Jonathan Vanian
About the writer
Joan Walsh is Salon's editor in chief.
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