Clancy: Where is the contempt for Norm Schwarzkopf in there?

You wrote, in describing Franks' reaction to news from Riyadh that Gen. Schwarzkopf was concerned about the "VII Corps pace of attack": "As a commander, I was not prone to wide mood swings or loud outbursts. Some are and use it as an effective command style." Who are you talking about there?

Clancy: What -- wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's an example of contempt? It's a statement of fact. Different people have different styles.

Right. But there's a clear implication that that particular style is not necessarily the most effective. You lay out how Schwarzkopf didn't make clear at the time his desire for you to move faster -- how all the communications that you got were to the effect of: "He [Schwarzkopf] doesn't want the pace any faster now. He's concerned with fratricide if the pace gets too fast." I mean, this is clearly a reference to Schwarzkopf's book in which he said he wanted to fire you on the second day of the ground campaign, in which he said he felt like the Army was being run by -- simultaneously -- by mules and race horses. So this is not a rebuttal to Schwarzkopf?

Clancy: It's not intended to be a rebuttal of Schwarzkopf; it's intended to be an exposition of facts.

Gen. Franks: What we tried to do in the book was to lay out the facts from the perspective of those who were out there on the battlefield, at the front so to speak, in the VII Corps. The book is about command, a day-by-day, hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute account of what was going on on the battlefield, and not a view of command from headquarters in Riyadh or even from Washington, since that's not where I was.

Do you feel that Gen. Schwarzkopf tried to clear his name at your expense, because the Republican Guard got away?

Clancy: How much of it got away?

Reportedly, it was about half of the -- it depends on whether you measure it in personnel or equipment. But by either measure, it was close to half, was it not?

Clancy: I don't think so. It wasn't -- certainly not equipment.

Franks: No, I don't think so. You know, our strategic mission was to liberate Kuwait, and destroy -- I mean, this was a theater-strategic mission -- enough of Saddam's army in the Kuwaiti theater that they couldn't immediately re-threaten Kuwait.

The strategic mission was to kick the Iraqis out of Kuwait. But clearly the mission of VII Corps was -- and you say so in the book -- was to destroy the Iraqi Republican Guard forces command. Now, looking back on it, how did they get away?

Clancy: Excuse me. How did who get away?

How did the Republican Guard forces that got away get away?

Clancy: Which elements of the Republican Guard got away?

About three divisions, four divisions that got away. You don't know this? You just wrote this book ...

Clancy: The whole Republican Guard didn't comprise ...

Franks: There were three Republican Guard mechanized armored divisions in the Kuwaiti theater -- Tawakalna, Madinah and Hammurabi. Madinah and Tawakalna sure as hell didn't get away. These two brigades were destroyed by the 1st Armored Division. Hammurabi was hit by air and then ran into the 24th Division.

What was Schwarzkopf so upset about then? Enough elements of the Republican Guard got away for Schwarzkopf to say that the "window of opportunity" had been missed.

Clancy: When did Norm say that?

It was by the third day of the ground campaign, when he said, "The window of opportunity is rapidly slamming shut." There is clearly a controversy about how much of the Guard got away, and the fact that Saddam Hussein is still in power.

Franks: On the last two days, as the 3rd Army attacked east, there was a whole land and air campaign to complete the mission; that is, liberate Kuwait and, as I said, destroy enough of Saddam's army in the Kuwaiti theater that he couldn't immediately re-threaten Kuwait. There were interdiction efforts on the causeway over the Euphrates -- I think you'll find that in the book. Then the coordination line, between the Army and the Air Force, was pushed north of the causeway in Basra -- which effectively made it much more difficult for the air to interdict the causeways and so forth. But that wasn't in the VII Corps sector, nor had it been.

Looking at the bigger picture, what do you think went wrong that so much of the Guard were able to escape?

Franks: Well, I don't -- see, I guess I don't subscribe to your conclusion that it "went wrong." This was about as close to -- as I said in the book -- this was about as close to a perfect operation as anything I have been involved with in 35 and a half years in the Army.

As you said, the strategic objective was to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait. But the tactical goal was to destroy the Guard by "enveloping" them, according to U.S. Army Field Manual 100-5's description of the mission -- "them," the Republican Guard. And Schwarzkopf said beforehand, "We want to drive them to the sea, we want to destroy the Republican Guard as an effective fighting force."

Clancy: Right. That was done.

You think that was done?

Clancy: Yeah. Who have they fought against since?

Well, they kept Saddam Hussein in power, didn't they?

Clancy: A fighting force -- OK, they're a good police force. But who have they fought against successfully? Come on -- come on -- if this is going to be an exchange of information, you've got to play too, right? You know, the Orioles beat Detroit 8-1 last night, and we've got a situation here where you say, "Well, you let them score one run. What did you do wrong?" Oops! Sorry.

But this is more than just one run. The fact is, Saddam Hussein's still in power.

Clancy: The objective of the war was never to overthrow Saddam Hussein, unfortunately. That was not an objective of the war. That was beyond the purview of Fred's -- it was beyond the purview of Norman Schwarzkopf. It was a political determination made by the government of the United States.