I've read that, as a teenager, you were a Dungeons and Dragons devotee and a virgin until age 21. So how did you transform into, arguably, the world's most well-known pickup artist?
Who said "arguably"? [Laughs.] I'm teasing, I'm teasing. Well, I was a late bloomer -- went through puberty at 16 and a half and lost my virginity in my 21st year. In order for me to get social, while I was a kid, I used -- and was fascinated by -- of all things, magic. This is how it all started: I read a book called "501 Magic Tricks." What was amazing was it wasn't four or five or six different ways of screwing with someone's head and showing the holes in their perception. There were 501 ways, all in one book. It was mind-altering to me.
By my 20s, I was doing hundreds and hundreds of magic shows all around the world and when I was in my mid-20s, I went down to Florida because I wanted to perform magic on a cruise ship. And while my promo pack was out there and being looked at, I needed to make some money. So, I started working in a restaurant doing what we call intimate interactive illusion. But how the hell do you walk up to a group of strangers and say [adopts dopey voice], "Hey would you like to see some magic?" I needed to come up with a way of making it cool, adding a personality to it.
What I ultimately discovered was that I could remove the magic from my interactions and keep their attention. People would be captivated -- they would gravitate toward me because of my fascination in things.
So, maybe it's no great surprise that you've become skilled at interacting one-on-one with people. But how good is the average guy at summoning that kind of charisma and confidence?
I'm less concerned about confidence than I am about competence. Charisma is a very ethereal word ...charisma. It's more about what value you have for a woman and how you can systematically demonstrate it to her without appearing as if you're one of those seedy players wanting to brag. It's not about bragging, so you disqualify yourself by throwing out what we call a "neg."
I was just about to go there. Explain for a minute what the "neg" is.
A "neg" is a concept. A "neg" is a statement or action one would make to briefly disqualify oneself from being considered a potential suitor. It's not an insult, I'm not putting the girl down. For instance, if I'm in a group of people and I say, perhaps to my girl of interest, "Hey, can you pass me that napkin, please? Thank you." I go to blow my nose and I look at her and I say, "What, are you gonna watch?" She'll laugh, of course, and I'll blow my nose. I'm not insulting her by doing that but I am disqualifying myself as being considered a potential suitor. Her friends know I'm not after her -- I'm blowing my nose in front of her!
Then the friends are disarmed and she's gonna think to herself, "He's not after me." If she's particularly beautiful, she's gonna wonder why. The only solution to why is either that he's gay, in which case he's not threatening, or he's so accustomed to beauty that he must have beauty in his life. So he must be pretty selective and a hard-wired attraction switch gets triggered.
One "neg" that I've seen you do is to walk up to a woman and say, "What do you have going for you other than your looks?"
I would never just walk up to her and say that, no. But, three to five minutes in ... My job is to first disqualify myself then to get into a conversation where I can demonstrate higher value. Once you've done that, she'll start throwing subtle indicators of interest. Subtle cues like scratching the back of her hand. That area of the hand gets itchy when a girl is attracted to a man from ape days, you know -- it means, "Groom me." That's a subtle indicator of interest. Once we get that, then and only then, can we qualify her. I'm being social, I'm showing that I have social values, and once she has qualified herself -- I ask, "What do you have going for yourself more than your looks?" -- and she starts answering. Well, that's an indicator of interest. She's actually trying to qualify herself. Then and only then can I give her indicators of interest.
The theory of "negging" is controversial. I've heard it criticized as simply veiled insults and misogynistic.
Those are the people who haven't seen it in action. The result of any "neg" is laughter.
Doesn't this kind of scheming ultimately harbor a more deep-seated sense of inadequacy in men? Don't you start to worry about having the "real you" discovered?
You've never met me in person, have you? And you wrote that question down on a piece of paper before you met me. Here is the word that I don't enjoy, "scheming" -- I'm not a schemer.
What word would you be more comfortable with?
Let's go through it again. What's the question?
OK ... would this kind of scheming create a sense of inadequacy in men -- a fear of being found out?
Wow. Did you write that? Snap out of it, woman! Oh my god. Let's come up with better questions than that -- that just doesn't fit into my reality. Are there people out there who scheme? Perhaps. Are there people out there who don't like themselves? Yeah. I like myself, I'm a good person.
This is really how I see it: If you don't learn these skills, if you don't learn what knowledge already exists in the Venusian Arts, your chances of survival and replication in this life will be compromised.
OK, how is this question: When you start looking at women as "targets," as a power to be overthrown, do you lose any intellectual respect for them?
That's a very loaded question. That doesn't fit into my reality. Forgive me, I don't look at women that way. So you'd have to ask someone who does. That's just not even in my reality. I have a lot of women in my life -- do you know what they'd do if I talked like that, if I thought like that? They'd kick my ass!
But if you can, as you say, so effectively summon virtually any woman's interest, wouldn't you start to lose respect for them?
In my life, I am very fortunate to have choice. If I'm not in a relationship, there are women who are actually kind of keeping track of that. So that they can, you know, jockey for a position.
That's just not my reality. The misogyny thing, of course I'm going to have to deal with the preconceived notions of the stereotype of a player. But that's why we don't even call it the pickup arts. We call it the Venusian Arts.
If your method is as effective as you say it is, do you worry about it getting into the wrong hands and being abused?
Well, I can't worry about it. Are there bad people out there? Yeah. Aren't there people who want to use any tool for evil?
Is it at all lonely, though, having to always follow these rules, rather than telling it like it is, saying things as you feel them?
Wow, yeah. Yeah, it is. How unfair is it that when I see a woman from a distance, I may not know her name and my god has given me attraction circuits in my head that make me want to mate with her. Even though I don't know her name, right? Women don't generally feel that. They have to know the man's name and his Social Security number.
I might disagree with that. I know plenty of women who aren't that way.
Uh, are they cute?
Well, that's the end of my questions, is there anything else, though, that you'd like to add?
[Snickers.] You're funny. Have you ever been to a club?
Yes.
How many boyfriends have you had? Have you had more than one?
Yes.
So you're one of us then. You're sequentially monogamous. You've had more than one man in your life.
Right. And?
These are just statements. I'm trying to understand who I'm speaking with. What city are you in?
San Francisco.
San Fran. OK, there's a [seduction] lair there.
I've heard.
About the writer
Tracy Clark-Flory is an assistant editor at Salon.
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