Salon Newsreal | Starr on the stand

A L S O+T O D A Y

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Starr
By Gary Kamiya
When the real Kenneth Starr finally stood up before the House, he turned out to have a split personality
Starr Wars
By Joan Walsh
The Democrats strike back
Nothing has changed
Compiled by Lori Leibovich and Fiona Morgan
The consensus of political experts is that no minds were changed by Starr's day in court
Dear Ken
The full text of ethics advisor Sam Dash's letter of resignation to Kenneth Starr
Starr speaks
The full text of independent counsel Kenneth Starr's House Judiciary Committee testimony
A dozen questions Congress should ask Kenneth Starr
By David Talbot, Murray Waas and Joan Walsh
(11/18/98)

T A B L E+T A L K
Discuss Ken Starr and his testimony in the Politics area of Table Talk

R E C E N T L Y
Same Old Party
By Joshua Micah Marshall
New leadership can't mend the rifts among Republicans in Congress
(11/19/98)
Reply to C.D. Ellison
By David Horowitz
It's time for blacks to have a two-party system, too
(11/19/98)
Toppling Saddam
By Frank Smyth
Clinton wants a new government in Baghdad, but he and the Iraqi opposition are unlikely to be up to the task
(11/18/98)
Brother on brother
By Murray Waas
Whitewater witness David Hale attempted to suborn perjury by his own brother by asking him to falsely corroborate illegal acts by President Clinton
(11/17/98)
The mark of Cain: a tale of two brothers
By Murray Waas
Though they traveled the same path from the family dirt farm through law school, the Hale brothers turned out different as night and day
(11/17/98)
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STARR SPEAKS | PAGE 1, 2,3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22
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SCHIPPERS: Now, you're -- you've been -- it's been suggested that your people used the young lady and betrayed the young lady. Wouldn't that more properly belong to the president of the United States?
STARR: Well, I am not sure I should be the one to pass judgment, but we certainly did not betray Ms. Lewinsky. We were doing our job, and we certainly never took any steps other than to try to vindicate the interest of the criminal law.
HYDE: Mr. Schippers, your time is expired. Do you need additional time?
SCHIPPERS: If I may, and if Judge Starr can stand it.
HYDE: Well --
SCHIPPERS: I will not need a great deal more, Mr. Chairman.
HYDE: All right, I'll allow an additional 15 minutes, and maybe you won't use that.
STARR : I'm sorry, that was off the record. Mr. Kendall tells me I should not do that.
SCHIPPERS: There's been some suggestion, judge, that this was merely a private crime. The United States Constitution provides for three branches of government, does it not?
STARR: That's right.
SCHIPPERS: Co-equal branches?
STARR: That's correct.
SCHIPPERS: And the judiciary is co-equal with the executive?
STARR: Absolutely.
SCHIPPERS: Did I understand you earlier to say that lying under oath, perjury and obstruction of justice strikes at the very heart of the judicial system of the United States?
STARR: Absolutely. And I think every judge would agree with that, that this absolutely inimical to the judicial functioning. It is inimical to our court system.
SCHIPPERS: And under that, the Constitution of the United States, if the judicial system is destroyed, that is destroying one of the constitutional portions of our government, isn't it?
STARR: No question that from the founding of the Republic the importance of our judiciary as an enforcer of rights and the vindicators of rule of law is absolutely critical?
SCHIPPERS: So when the president of the United States lies under oath, civil or criminal case, grand jury or other, and obstructs justice, civil or criminal, grand jury or other, he is effectively attacking the judicial branch of the United States constitutional government, isn't he?
STARR: That is the way I would view it.
SCHIPPERS: And that president takes the oath that he will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States -- right?
STARR: Right.
SCHIPPERS: That's not defending, is it?
STARR: No, it's not.
SCHIPPERS: There is a term that has stuck in my brain from these transcripts that I've read, and that is "mission accomplished."
When Webb Hubbell needed help, Vernon Jordan got somebody at Revlon or the parent company of Revlon to put him on retainer for no work, right?
STARR: Essentially no work.
SCHIPPERS: So Vernon Jordan, mission accomplished.
When Monica was looking for a job, and it became very urgent for her to get a job, Mr. Jordan again accomplished his mission.
STARR: Yes, he did.
SCHIPPERS: When Ms. Currie -- when they wanted to get rid of the gifts, Ms. Currie went and picked them up, put them under her bed to keep them from anybody else; another mission accomplished.
STARR: That's correct.
SCHIPPERS: By the way, there's been some talk here that Monica said that she recalled that Betty Currie called her and said, "Either the president wants me to pick something up or I understand you have something for me to pick up." Later Ms. Currie backed off of that and said, "Well, I'm not sure. Maybe Monica called me."
In the material that you made available, you and your staff made available to us, there were 302s in which Monica said, "I think, when Betty called me, she was using her cell phone." Do you recall that, Judge Starr?
STARR: I do.
SCHIPPERS: And in that same material that's in your office, that both parties were able to review and that we did, in fact, review, there are phone records of Ms. Currie, are there not?
STARR: There are.
SCHIPPERS: And there is a telephone call on her cell phone to Monica Lewinsky's home on the afternoon of December 28th, 1997, isn't there?
STARR: That is correct.
SCHIPPERS: Once again, Monica is right and she has been corroborated, right?
STARR: That certainly tends to corroborate Ms. Lewinsky's recollection.
SCHIPPERS: By the way, they did find some of the billing records from the Rose firm in the attic of Vince Foster's home.
STARR: Yes, that is correct.
SCHIPPERS: They weren't under the bed, were they?
STARR: No, they were in the attic.
SCHIPPERS: Now --
WATERS: Is it okay to laugh? Ha ha ha.
SCHIPPERS: I'm sorry?
HYDE: She wanted to know if it was okay to laugh.
SCHIPPERS: Oh, sure.
HYDE: He says yes.
SCHIPPERS: Lewinsky -- now, when Ms. Lewinsky was subpoenaed, Mr. Jordan contacted the president and then got Ms. Lewinsky an attorney, Mr. Carter. Is that right?
STARR: That's correct.
SCHIPPERS: Another mission accomplished. When Monica did her job search and she signed a false affidavit, the next day she was up in New York trying to get a job. Isn't that right?
STARR: I believe it was the next day, yes.
SCHIPPERS: And she couldn't get a job because she kind of didn't do a very good job on the interview.
STARR: She did not feel that the interview had not gone well and she was not given a job offer, and that concerned her. And she expressed that concern.
SCHIPPERS: This is when Mr. Jordan called the chairman of the board and got her the job.
STARR: He certainly -- yes. He called Mr. Perlman, and Mr. Perlman then made a call, and she was reinterviewed and she was hired.
SCHIPPERS: So Mr. Jordan at that time knew that the false affidavit had been signed and that he had a job for Monica. And he went to see the president of the United States and said, "Mission accomplished," didn't he?
STARR: Well, in fairness to Mr. Jordan, he knew the affidavit had been signed. The rest, I'm sure, would be in some dispute. But, yes, that is --
SCHIPPERS: But he knew the affidavit had been signed --
STARR: Yes.
SCHIPPERS: -- and he knew that the job had been gotten, and he went in to the president and said, "Mission accomplished."
STARR: Yes, that is correct.
SCHIPPERS: We don't know which he was referring to, whether it was the job or "We got the affidavit signed," do we?
STARR: No, I don't think that we do know that. We just know he said, you know, "Mission accomplished." And I know he felt that he had, you know, engaged in a certain level of effort to secure that job for Ms. Lewinsky at Revlon.
SCHIPPERS: Judge Starr, I only have a few more questions. You are a senior partner in a major law firm, or you were before you took your leave of absence.
STARR: Yeah, past tense.
SCHIPPERS: You are a recognized scholar in constitutional law and in law in general. You have been the solicitor general of the United States. Is that correct?
STARR: That's correct.
SCHIPPERS: Argued a number of cases before the Supreme Court of the United States.
STARR: That's correct.
SCHIPPERS: You have received honorary doctors of law degrees from six universities.
STARR: I think that's right.
SCHIPPERS: You've written numberless articles in various scholarly journals.
STARR: Yes, I've written a number.
SCHIPPERS: You have a completely unblemished career for your entire life as a lawyer and you're looked upon in the profession as a man of honor, integrity and decency. Is that right?
STARR: Well, I would like to think that at least once upon a time that was the reputation.
SCHIPPERS: For the past year, you have been trashed in the newspapers, on television and with snide backward remarks, to which you could not reply. Isn't that right, Judge Starr?
STARR: Well, I've chosen until now not to reply. But I think the code of silence sometimes, in terms of basic fairness, gets to come to an end.
SCHIPPERS: And you have been pilloried and excoriated, charged with unbelievable things of which you are incapable of being guilty.
STARR: I cannot imagine me and my colleagues engaging in some of the suggested activities that have been described here seriously. We simply cannot, in conscience, live with one another as professionals. And I laid out, in my opening statement, the backgrounds of my colleagues.
And I've been privileged to serve with two John Marshall Award winners, and that's special at the Justice Department. That means there's no better trial lawyer in the Department of Justice recognized in a particular year. And I've been privileged to serve with two of them, with public corruption chiefs. These are career civil servants, and it's not right and it's not fair to attack and calumny career civil servants. But for my part, I've learned that it goes with the independent counsel territory.
SCHIPPERS: And the independent counsel job, you didn't seek that, did you?
STARR: Absolutely not.
SCHIPPERS: You were asked to take it. And you tried to leave, and your staff begged you to stay and you did stay. Is that right?
STARR: All of that is true. I never sought this job. I'm reminded of the old song about taking a job and what you then do with it. But it would be indecorous of me to say. But, no, I was asked by the special division to take on this responsibility. The three-judge panel saw fit to ask me to serve.
I had been asked by Phil Heymann, who was deputy attorney general of the United States, in January of 1994 whether I would be willing to be considered for appointment as the Whitewater counsel under Ms. Reno, to be appointed by Janet Reno. Happily for me, she wisely chose Bob Fiske. Unhappily for me, the special division chose me.
SCHIPPERS: You have been given a duty that you did not seek and you've performed that duty to the best of your ability. Is that correct, sir?
N E X T+P A G E+| "We're big, big boys, and I mean that in a gender- neutral way"

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A L S O+T O D A Y Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Starr By Gary Kamiya When the real Kenneth Starr finally stood up before the House, he turned out to have a split personality Starr Wars By Joan Walsh The Democrats strike back Nothing has changed Compiled by Lori Leibovich and Fiona Morgan The consensus of political experts is that no minds were changed by Starr's day in court Dear Ken The full text of ethics advisor Sam Dash's letter of resignation to Kenneth Starr Starr speaks The full text of independent counsel Kenneth Starr's House Judiciary Committee testimony A dozen questions Congress should ask Kenneth Starr By David Talbot, Murray Waas and Joan Walsh (11/18/98) T A B L E+T A L K Discuss Ken Starr and his testimony in the Politics area of Table Talk R E C E N T L Y Same Old Party By Joshua Micah Marshall New leadership can't mend the rifts among Republicans in Congress (11/19/98) Reply to C.D. Ellison By David Horowitz It's time for blacks to have a two-party system, too (11/19/98) Toppling Saddam By Frank Smyth Clinton wants a new government in Baghdad, but he and the Iraqi opposition are unlikely to be up to the task (11/18/98) Brother on brother By Murray Waas Whitewater witness David Hale attempted to suborn perjury by his own brother by asking him to falsely corroborate illegal acts by President Clinton (11/17/98) The mark of Cain: a tale of two brothers By Murray Waas Though they traveled the same path from the family dirt farm through law school, the Hale brothers turned out different as night and day (11/17/98) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Browse the Newsreal Archives - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - S A L O N E M P O R I U M FREE! 12-ounce bag of Salon Blend with a purchase of $30 or more. While supplies last.
		STARR SPEAKS \| PAGE 1, 2,3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 - - - - - - - - - - SCHIPPERS: Now, you're -- you've been -- it's been suggested that your people used the young lady and betrayed the young lady. Wouldn't that more properly belong to the president of the United States? STARR: Well, I am not sure I should be the one to pass judgment, but we certainly did not betray Ms. Lewinsky. We were doing our job, and we certainly never took any steps other than to try to vindicate the interest of the criminal law. HYDE: Mr. Schippers, your time is expired. Do you need additional time? SCHIPPERS: If I may, and if Judge Starr can stand it. HYDE: Well -- SCHIPPERS: I will not need a great deal more, Mr. Chairman. HYDE: All right, I'll allow an additional 15 minutes, and maybe you won't use that. STARR : I'm sorry, that was off the record. Mr. Kendall tells me I should not do that. SCHIPPERS: There's been some suggestion, judge, that this was merely a private crime. The United States Constitution provides for three branches of government, does it not? STARR: That's right. SCHIPPERS: Co-equal branches? STARR: That's correct. SCHIPPERS: And the judiciary is co-equal with the executive? STARR: Absolutely. SCHIPPERS: Did I understand you earlier to say that lying under oath, perjury and obstruction of justice strikes at the very heart of the judicial system of the United States? STARR: Absolutely. And I think every judge would agree with that, that this absolutely inimical to the judicial functioning. It is inimical to our court system. SCHIPPERS: And under that, the Constitution of the United States, if the judicial system is destroyed, that is destroying one of the constitutional portions of our government, isn't it? STARR: No question that from the founding of the Republic the importance of our judiciary as an enforcer of rights and the vindicators of rule of law is absolutely critical? SCHIPPERS: So when the president of the United States lies under oath, civil or criminal case, grand jury or other, and obstructs justice, civil or criminal, grand jury or other, he is effectively attacking the judicial branch of the United States constitutional government, isn't he? STARR: That is the way I would view it. SCHIPPERS: And that president takes the oath that he will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States -- right? STARR: Right. SCHIPPERS: That's not defending, is it? STARR: No, it's not. SCHIPPERS: There is a term that has stuck in my brain from these transcripts that I've read, and that is "mission accomplished." When Webb Hubbell needed help, Vernon Jordan got somebody at Revlon or the parent company of Revlon to put him on retainer for no work, right? STARR: Essentially no work. SCHIPPERS: So Vernon Jordan, mission accomplished. When Monica was looking for a job, and it became very urgent for her to get a job, Mr. Jordan again accomplished his mission. STARR: Yes, he did. SCHIPPERS: When Ms. Currie -- when they wanted to get rid of the gifts, Ms. Currie went and picked them up, put them under her bed to keep them from anybody else; another mission accomplished. STARR: That's correct. SCHIPPERS: By the way, there's been some talk here that Monica said that she recalled that Betty Currie called her and said, "Either the president wants me to pick something up or I understand you have something for me to pick up." Later Ms. Currie backed off of that and said, "Well, I'm not sure. Maybe Monica called me." In the material that you made available, you and your staff made available to us, there were 302s in which Monica said, "I think, when Betty called me, she was using her cell phone." Do you recall that, Judge Starr? STARR: I do. SCHIPPERS: And in that same material that's in your office, that both parties were able to review and that we did, in fact, review, there are phone records of Ms. Currie, are there not? STARR: There are. SCHIPPERS: And there is a telephone call on her cell phone to Monica Lewinsky's home on the afternoon of December 28th, 1997, isn't there? STARR: That is correct. SCHIPPERS: Once again, Monica is right and she has been corroborated, right? STARR: That certainly tends to corroborate Ms. Lewinsky's recollection. SCHIPPERS: By the way, they did find some of the billing records from the Rose firm in the attic of Vince Foster's home. STARR: Yes, that is correct. SCHIPPERS: They weren't under the bed, were they? STARR: No, they were in the attic. SCHIPPERS: Now -- WATERS: Is it okay to laugh? Ha ha ha. SCHIPPERS: I'm sorry? HYDE: She wanted to know if it was okay to laugh. SCHIPPERS: Oh, sure. HYDE: He says yes. SCHIPPERS: Lewinsky -- now, when Ms. Lewinsky was subpoenaed, Mr. Jordan contacted the president and then got Ms. Lewinsky an attorney, Mr. Carter. Is that right? STARR: That's correct. SCHIPPERS: Another mission accomplished. When Monica did her job search and she signed a false affidavit, the next day she was up in New York trying to get a job. Isn't that right? STARR: I believe it was the next day, yes. SCHIPPERS: And she couldn't get a job because she kind of didn't do a very good job on the interview. STARR: She did not feel that the interview had not gone well and she was not given a job offer, and that concerned her. And she expressed that concern. SCHIPPERS: This is when Mr. Jordan called the chairman of the board and got her the job. STARR: He certainly -- yes. He called Mr. Perlman, and Mr. Perlman then made a call, and she was reinterviewed and she was hired. SCHIPPERS: So Mr. Jordan at that time knew that the false affidavit had been signed and that he had a job for Monica. And he went to see the president of the United States and said, "Mission accomplished," didn't he? STARR: Well, in fairness to Mr. Jordan, he knew the affidavit had been signed. The rest, I'm sure, would be in some dispute. But, yes, that is -- SCHIPPERS: But he knew the affidavit had been signed -- STARR: Yes. SCHIPPERS: -- and he knew that the job had been gotten, and he went in to the president and said, "Mission accomplished." STARR: Yes, that is correct. SCHIPPERS: We don't know which he was referring to, whether it was the job or "We got the affidavit signed," do we? STARR: No, I don't think that we do know that. We just know he said, you know, "Mission accomplished." And I know he felt that he had, you know, engaged in a certain level of effort to secure that job for Ms. Lewinsky at Revlon. SCHIPPERS: Judge Starr, I only have a few more questions. You are a senior partner in a major law firm, or you were before you took your leave of absence. STARR: Yeah, past tense. SCHIPPERS: You are a recognized scholar in constitutional law and in law in general. You have been the solicitor general of the United States. Is that correct? STARR: That's correct. SCHIPPERS: Argued a number of cases before the Supreme Court of the United States. STARR: That's correct. SCHIPPERS: You have received honorary doctors of law degrees from six universities. STARR: I think that's right. SCHIPPERS: You've written numberless articles in various scholarly journals. STARR: Yes, I've written a number. SCHIPPERS: You have a completely unblemished career for your entire life as a lawyer and you're looked upon in the profession as a man of honor, integrity and decency. Is that right? STARR: Well, I would like to think that at least once upon a time that was the reputation. SCHIPPERS: For the past year, you have been trashed in the newspapers, on television and with snide backward remarks, to which you could not reply. Isn't that right, Judge Starr? STARR: Well, I've chosen until now not to reply. But I think the code of silence sometimes, in terms of basic fairness, gets to come to an end. SCHIPPERS: And you have been pilloried and excoriated, charged with unbelievable things of which you are incapable of being guilty. STARR: I cannot imagine me and my colleagues engaging in some of the suggested activities that have been described here seriously. We simply cannot, in conscience, live with one another as professionals. And I laid out, in my opening statement, the backgrounds of my colleagues. And I've been privileged to serve with two John Marshall Award winners, and that's special at the Justice Department. That means there's no better trial lawyer in the Department of Justice recognized in a particular year. And I've been privileged to serve with two of them, with public corruption chiefs. These are career civil servants, and it's not right and it's not fair to attack and calumny career civil servants. But for my part, I've learned that it goes with the independent counsel territory. SCHIPPERS: And the independent counsel job, you didn't seek that, did you? STARR: Absolutely not. SCHIPPERS: You were asked to take it. And you tried to leave, and your staff begged you to stay and you did stay. Is that right? STARR: All of that is true. I never sought this job. I'm reminded of the old song about taking a job and what you then do with it. But it would be indecorous of me to say. But, no, I was asked by the special division to take on this responsibility. The three-judge panel saw fit to ask me to serve. I had been asked by Phil Heymann, who was deputy attorney general of the United States, in January of 1994 whether I would be willing to be considered for appointment as the Whitewater counsel under Ms. Reno, to be appointed by Janet Reno. Happily for me, she wisely chose Bob Fiske. Unhappily for me, the special division chose me. SCHIPPERS: You have been given a duty that you did not seek and you've performed that duty to the best of your ability. Is that correct, sir? N E X T+P A G E+\| "We're big, big boys, and I mean that in a gender- neutral way" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Become a Salon member. Click here.