Salon Newsreal | Starr on the stand

A L S O+T O D A Y

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Starr
By Gary Kamiya
When the real Kenneth Starr finally stood up before the House, he turned out to have a split personality
Starr Wars
By Joan Walsh
The Democrats strike back
Dear Ken
The full text of ethics advisor Sam Dash's letter of resignation to Kenneth Starr
Nothing has changed
Compiled by Lori Leibovich and Fiona Morgan
The consensus of political experts is that no minds were changed by Starr's day in court
Starr speaks
The full text of independent counsel Kenneth Starr's House Judiciary Committee testimony
A dozen questions Congress should ask Kenneth Starr
By David Talbot, Murray Waas and Joan Walsh
(11/18/98)

T A B L E+T A L K
Discuss Ken Starr and his testimony in the Politics area of Table Talk

R E C E N T L Y
Same Old Party
By Joshua Micah Marshall
New leadership can't mend the rifts among Republicans in Congress
(11/19/98)
Reply to C.D. Ellison
By David Horowitz
It's time for blacks to have a two-party system, too
(11/19/98)
Toppling Saddam
By Frank Smyth
Clinton wants a new government in Baghdad, but he and the Iraqi opposition are unlikely to be up to the task
(11/18/98)
Brother on brother
By Murray Waas
Whitewater witness David Hale attempted to suborn perjury by his own brother by asking him to falsely corroborate illegal acts by President Clinton
(11/17/98)
The mark of Cain: a tale of two brothers
By Murray Waas
Though they traveled the same path from the family dirt farm through law school, the Hale brothers turned out different as night and day
(11/17/98)
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STARR SPEAKS | PAGE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 , 21, 22
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JACKSON-LEE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take this opportunity for a point of information and also to speak briefly to the motion of Mr. Delahunt.
First of all, I think it would be well to clarify the point that the president's counsel stands as the president's counsel. The Democrats and the Democratic counsel of the House stand separately in their responsibility to the impeachment process. And so to collectively add up numbers to suggest that we have in total some 200, 100, five minutes -- whatever it may be, Mr. Chairman -- I would respectfully disagree: for in the instance of the St. Clair representation of Mr. Nixon, he had an unlimited amount of time because it was distinct under the Rodino Watergate committee, which this committee alludes to the fact that it is following, that they had a separate responsibility from the House Democrats.
And I respect that because I will ultimately, with my colleagues, have to vote up or down on articles of impeachment.
Secondarily, let me say, Mr. Chairman, just in terms of the context of justice in America, we have always argued that justice is blind, but we've never argued that justice is gagged. You cannot have the defense in a courtroom sitting gagged and bound without any opportunity to refute the accused overwhelming opportunity to talk and talk and talk.
We do not talk by death, if you will, the accused in the courtroom. We allow a defense. And I respect the process and the procedure of this very awesome and somber occasion, but I cannot for the life of me understand, Mr. Chairman, why we would gag and bound the counsel for the White House, the counsel for the president, which goes against every single grain in the history of America.
When we did it with the Chicago Seven, or Eight, in Chicago, we have never lived down that tainted process. I certainly don't equate this with that, but I would argue that we should never repeat history and gag the defense for this particular issue.
JACKSON-LEE: So Mr. Chairman, I would ask, with all due respect, that we clarify that the president's counsel is the president's counsel, the House is separate, I am separate, and we cannot collectively add that time together. And I would ask that we vote for Mr. Delahunt's motion.
HYDE: The chair would like to suggest to the gentlelady, with respect, the chair doesn't intend to bind and gag anybody.
JACKSON-LEE: I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman.
HYDE: Anybody.
JACKSON-LEE: The chair...
SENSENBRENNER: Chairman...
JACKSON-LEE: And I would like to support his motion by acclamation.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
HYDE: I didn't hear the end. You want a motion by acclamation?
JACKSON-LEE: I would ask both Republicans and Democrats to support Mr. Delahunt's motion of fairness by acclamation, leading into or taking up the point that the chairman just made that he has no intention to gag and bound the voice of the counsel of the president of the United States. I ask that we accept his motion by acclamation, both Republicans and Democrats.
I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman.
HYDE: The gentleman from Wisconsin.
SENSENBRENNER: Mr. Chairman, the entire purpose of this meeting here today is to get Mr. Starr's testimony and to ask a reasonable amount of questions of Mr. Starr to find out why he did what he did and why he reached the conclusions that he did.
Having a couple of hours of parliamentary haggling relative to the procedure of today's hearing, I think, denigrates the dignity of this hearing.
I have great confidence in the fairness of Mr. Hyde. Mr. Hyde has presided over this committee in an extremely fair manner for the almost four years that he has served as chairman.
I think that the complaints that we are hearing from the other side of the aisle insinuate that Mr. Hyde will not conduct this hearing fairly. I don't think that there are any facts in evidence that Mr. Hyde is not going to conduct this hearing fairly.
I think we should vote down the motion. We should get on with Judge Starr's testimony, the questions that will be asked by the various counsel, and see how it goes.
SENSENBRENNER: But the people over on the other side of the aisle, I think, are saying that this is going to be a railroad before the whistle even blows and the train leaves the station.
Let's hear what Judge Starr has to say. Let's conduct a dignified hearing, and let's get to the merits of this issue rather than who gets to talk how long.
CONYERS: Mr. Chairman, parliamentary inquiry.
HYDE: The gentleman from Michigan.
CONYERS: Mr. Chairman, notwithstanding that Maxine Waters is our fairness cop, I move for a vote on the pending motion.
(UNKNOWN): Here, here.
(UNKNOWN): Parliamentary inquiry.
HYDE: Without objection, the previous question is ordered and the clerk will call the roll.
CLERK: Mr. Sensenbrenner.
SENSENBRENNER: No.
CLERK: Mr. Sensenbrenner votes no.
Mr. McCollum.
MCCOLLUM: No.
CLERK: Mr. McCollum votes no.
Mr. Gekas.
GEKAS: No.
CLERK: Mr. Gekas votes no.
Mr. Coble.
COBLE: No.
CLERK: Mr. Coble votes no.
Mr. Smith.
SMITH: No.
CLERK: Mr. Smith votes no.
Mr. Gallegly.
GALLEGLY: No.
CLERK: Mr. Gallegly votes no.
Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: No.
CLERK: Mr. Kennedy votes no.
Mr. Inglis.
INGLIS: No.
CLERK: Mr. Inglis votes no.
Mr. Goodlatte.
GOODLATTE: No.
CLERK: Mr. Goodlatte votes no.
Mr. Buyer.
BUYER: No.
CLERK: Mr. Buyer votes no.
Mr. Bryant.
BRYANT: No.
CLERK: Mr. Bryant votes no.
Mr. Chabot.
CHABOT: No.
CLERK: Mr. Chabot votes no.
Mr. Barr.
BARR: No.
CLERK: Mr. Barr votes no.
Mr. Jenkins.
JENKINS: No.
CLERK: Mr. Jenkins votes no.
Mr. Hutchinson.
HUTCHINSON: No.
CLERK: Mr. Hutchinson votes no.
Mr. Pease.
PEASE: No.
CLERK: Mr. Pease votes no.
Mr. Cannon.
CANNON: No.
CLERK: Mr. Cannon votes no.
Mr. Rogan.
ROGAN: No.
CLERK: Mr. Rogan votes no.
Mr. Graham.
GRAHAM: No.
CLERK: Mr. Graham votes no.
Ms. Bono.
BONO: No.
CLERK: Ms. Bono votes no.
Mr. Conyers.
CONYERS: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Conyers votes aye.
Mr. Frank.
FRANK: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Frank votes aye.
Mr. Schumer.
SCHUMER: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Schumer votes aye.
Mr. Berman.
BERMAN: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Berman votes aye.
Mr. Boucher.
BOUCHER: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Boucher votes aye.
Mr. Nadler.
NADLER: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Nadler votes aye.
Mr. Scott.
SCOTT: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Scott votes aye.
Mr. Watt.
WATT: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Watt votes aye.
Ms. Lofgren.
LOFGREN: Aye.
CLERK: Ms. Lofgren votes aye.
Ms. JACKSON-LEE.
JACKSON-LEE: Aye.
CLERK: Ms. JACKSON-LEE votes aye.
Ms. Waters.
WATERS: Aye.
CLERK: Ms. Waters votes aye.
Mr. Meehan.
MEEHAN: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Meehan votes aye.
Mr. Delahunt.
DELAHUNT: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Delahunt votes aye.
Mr. Wexler.
WEXLER: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Wexler votes aye.
Mr. Rothman.
ROTHMAN: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Rothman votes aye.
Mr. Barrett.
BARRETT: Aye.
CLERK: Mr. Barrett votes aye.
Mr. Hyde.
HYDE: No.
CLERK: Mr. Hyde votes no.
Mr. Chairman, there are 16 ayes and 21 no's.
N E X T+P A G E+| "The business of impeachment is rare, and happily so"

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A L S O+T O D A Y Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Starr By Gary Kamiya When the real Kenneth Starr finally stood up before the House, he turned out to have a split personality Starr Wars By Joan Walsh The Democrats strike back Dear Ken The full text of ethics advisor Sam Dash's letter of resignation to Kenneth Starr Nothing has changed Compiled by Lori Leibovich and Fiona Morgan The consensus of political experts is that no minds were changed by Starr's day in court Starr speaks The full text of independent counsel Kenneth Starr's House Judiciary Committee testimony A dozen questions Congress should ask Kenneth Starr By David Talbot, Murray Waas and Joan Walsh (11/18/98) T A B L E+T A L K Discuss Ken Starr and his testimony in the Politics area of Table Talk R E C E N T L Y Same Old Party By Joshua Micah Marshall New leadership can't mend the rifts among Republicans in Congress (11/19/98) Reply to C.D. Ellison By David Horowitz It's time for blacks to have a two-party system, too (11/19/98) Toppling Saddam By Frank Smyth Clinton wants a new government in Baghdad, but he and the Iraqi opposition are unlikely to be up to the task (11/18/98) Brother on brother By Murray Waas Whitewater witness David Hale attempted to suborn perjury by his own brother by asking him to falsely corroborate illegal acts by President Clinton (11/17/98) The mark of Cain: a tale of two brothers By Murray Waas Though they traveled the same path from the family dirt farm through law school, the Hale brothers turned out different as night and day (11/17/98) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Browse the Newsreal Archives - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - S A L O N E M P O R I U M FREE! 12-ounce bag of Salon Blend with a purchase of $30 or more. While supplies last.
		STARR SPEAKS \| PAGE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 , 21, 22 - - - - - - - - - - JACKSON-LEE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take this opportunity for a point of information and also to speak briefly to the motion of Mr. Delahunt. First of all, I think it would be well to clarify the point that the president's counsel stands as the president's counsel. The Democrats and the Democratic counsel of the House stand separately in their responsibility to the impeachment process. And so to collectively add up numbers to suggest that we have in total some 200, 100, five minutes -- whatever it may be, Mr. Chairman -- I would respectfully disagree: for in the instance of the St. Clair representation of Mr. Nixon, he had an unlimited amount of time because it was distinct under the Rodino Watergate committee, which this committee alludes to the fact that it is following, that they had a separate responsibility from the House Democrats. And I respect that because I will ultimately, with my colleagues, have to vote up or down on articles of impeachment. Secondarily, let me say, Mr. Chairman, just in terms of the context of justice in America, we have always argued that justice is blind, but we've never argued that justice is gagged. You cannot have the defense in a courtroom sitting gagged and bound without any opportunity to refute the accused overwhelming opportunity to talk and talk and talk. We do not talk by death, if you will, the accused in the courtroom. We allow a defense. And I respect the process and the procedure of this very awesome and somber occasion, but I cannot for the life of me understand, Mr. Chairman, why we would gag and bound the counsel for the White House, the counsel for the president, which goes against every single grain in the history of America. When we did it with the Chicago Seven, or Eight, in Chicago, we have never lived down that tainted process. I certainly don't equate this with that, but I would argue that we should never repeat history and gag the defense for this particular issue. JACKSON-LEE: So Mr. Chairman, I would ask, with all due respect, that we clarify that the president's counsel is the president's counsel, the House is separate, I am separate, and we cannot collectively add that time together. And I would ask that we vote for Mr. Delahunt's motion. HYDE: The chair would like to suggest to the gentlelady, with respect, the chair doesn't intend to bind and gag anybody. JACKSON-LEE: I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman. HYDE: Anybody. JACKSON-LEE: The chair... SENSENBRENNER: Chairman... JACKSON-LEE: And I would like to support his motion by acclamation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. HYDE: I didn't hear the end. You want a motion by acclamation? JACKSON-LEE: I would ask both Republicans and Democrats to support Mr. Delahunt's motion of fairness by acclamation, leading into or taking up the point that the chairman just made that he has no intention to gag and bound the voice of the counsel of the president of the United States. I ask that we accept his motion by acclamation, both Republicans and Democrats. I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman. HYDE: The gentleman from Wisconsin. SENSENBRENNER: Mr. Chairman, the entire purpose of this meeting here today is to get Mr. Starr's testimony and to ask a reasonable amount of questions of Mr. Starr to find out why he did what he did and why he reached the conclusions that he did. Having a couple of hours of parliamentary haggling relative to the procedure of today's hearing, I think, denigrates the dignity of this hearing. I have great confidence in the fairness of Mr. Hyde. Mr. Hyde has presided over this committee in an extremely fair manner for the almost four years that he has served as chairman. I think that the complaints that we are hearing from the other side of the aisle insinuate that Mr. Hyde will not conduct this hearing fairly. I don't think that there are any facts in evidence that Mr. Hyde is not going to conduct this hearing fairly. I think we should vote down the motion. We should get on with Judge Starr's testimony, the questions that will be asked by the various counsel, and see how it goes. SENSENBRENNER: But the people over on the other side of the aisle, I think, are saying that this is going to be a railroad before the whistle even blows and the train leaves the station. Let's hear what Judge Starr has to say. Let's conduct a dignified hearing, and let's get to the merits of this issue rather than who gets to talk how long. CONYERS: Mr. Chairman, parliamentary inquiry. HYDE: The gentleman from Michigan. CONYERS: Mr. Chairman, notwithstanding that Maxine Waters is our fairness cop, I move for a vote on the pending motion. (UNKNOWN): Here, here. (UNKNOWN): Parliamentary inquiry. HYDE: Without objection, the previous question is ordered and the clerk will call the roll. CLERK: Mr. Sensenbrenner. SENSENBRENNER: No. CLERK: Mr. Sensenbrenner votes no. Mr. McCollum. MCCOLLUM: No. CLERK: Mr. McCollum votes no. Mr. Gekas. GEKAS: No. CLERK: Mr. Gekas votes no. Mr. Coble. COBLE: No. CLERK: Mr. Coble votes no. Mr. Smith. SMITH: No. CLERK: Mr. Smith votes no. Mr. Gallegly. GALLEGLY: No. CLERK: Mr. Gallegly votes no. Mr. Kennedy. KENNEDY: No. CLERK: Mr. Kennedy votes no. Mr. Inglis. INGLIS: No. CLERK: Mr. Inglis votes no. Mr. Goodlatte. GOODLATTE: No. CLERK: Mr. Goodlatte votes no. Mr. Buyer. BUYER: No. CLERK: Mr. Buyer votes no. Mr. Bryant. BRYANT: No. CLERK: Mr. Bryant votes no. Mr. Chabot. CHABOT: No. CLERK: Mr. Chabot votes no. Mr. Barr. BARR: No. CLERK: Mr. Barr votes no. Mr. Jenkins. JENKINS: No. CLERK: Mr. Jenkins votes no. Mr. Hutchinson. HUTCHINSON: No. CLERK: Mr. Hutchinson votes no. Mr. Pease. PEASE: No. CLERK: Mr. Pease votes no. Mr. Cannon. CANNON: No. CLERK: Mr. Cannon votes no. Mr. Rogan. ROGAN: No. CLERK: Mr. Rogan votes no. Mr. Graham. GRAHAM: No. CLERK: Mr. Graham votes no. Ms. Bono. BONO: No. CLERK: Ms. Bono votes no. Mr. Conyers. CONYERS: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Conyers votes aye. Mr. Frank. FRANK: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Frank votes aye. Mr. Schumer. SCHUMER: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Schumer votes aye. Mr. Berman. BERMAN: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Berman votes aye. Mr. Boucher. BOUCHER: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Boucher votes aye. Mr. Nadler. NADLER: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Nadler votes aye. Mr. Scott. SCOTT: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Scott votes aye. Mr. Watt. WATT: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Watt votes aye. Ms. Lofgren. LOFGREN: Aye. CLERK: Ms. Lofgren votes aye. Ms. JACKSON-LEE. JACKSON-LEE: Aye. CLERK: Ms. JACKSON-LEE votes aye. Ms. Waters. WATERS: Aye. CLERK: Ms. Waters votes aye. Mr. Meehan. MEEHAN: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Meehan votes aye. Mr. Delahunt. DELAHUNT: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Delahunt votes aye. Mr. Wexler. WEXLER: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Wexler votes aye. Mr. Rothman. ROTHMAN: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Rothman votes aye. Mr. Barrett. BARRETT: Aye. CLERK: Mr. Barrett votes aye. Mr. Hyde. HYDE: No. CLERK: Mr. Hyde votes no. Mr. Chairman, there are 16 ayes and 21 no's. N E X T+P A G E+\| "The business of impeachment is rare, and happily so" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Become a Salon member. Click here.