But isn't there a difference between talking about a balanced budget, which Bill Clinton achieved, and putting into play a constitutional mechanism that the Republicans could use against any new spending programs?
No, I think you also have to take other steps that involve tough medicine like a line-item veto. Clinton tried to do it and he almost got it done. Pay-as-you-go policies. Corporate welfare. I'd have a national commission like the base-closure commission that would list all the $73 billion in fat in corporate welfare in one vote and not allow it to be picked up. It would be tough to get rid of earmarks, you know that. But we've got to significantly reduce them or make them open.
Were you against earmarks when you were in Congress?
No, I did some myself. Not that many. But when I was the secretary of energy, I got into trouble by saying that some of these Department of Energy earmarks [were wasteful]. [Robert] Novak wrote a column about it. [The Novak column about Richardson's fight with the Senate over pork-barrel spending appeared on Sept. 11, 2000.] Check Novak, though he doesn't like me anymore.
Just general ideological reasons?
I don't know. He just wrote some snotty column. Just like your guy. I'm talking to you because of your reputation, not because of that idiot that wrote that story about me. [Richardson was referring to this June article by Michael Scherer, Salon's Washington correspondent.]
What was wrong with the story?
The story was, like, almost racist. It said that this guy is like a Don Quixote. The story was almost totally biased, I felt. [The Salon article was titled "The Democratic Don Quixote." The headline, written by a Salon editor, was inspired by Richardson's visit to the Don Quijote Restaurant in Manchester, N.H., which is described in the story.]
I reread the story when I first heard of your complaints, in setting up this interview, and I don't see any problem. But with time short, I don't want to get bogged down in this. But I am sorry you feel that way.
I don't want to fight with you. You're a good journalist.
Let's switch to a serious policy question. Given your experiences negotiating with Saddam Hussein and North Korea, is there anybody in the world that the U.S. shouldn't be talking to?
We shouldn't be talking to Osama bin Laden. We shouldn't be talking to the most extreme leadership of al-Qaida. We shouldn't be talking to the most extreme leadership of Hamas. But short of that, I don't mind using mediation and other techniques to deal with the world's worst [leaders]. But I am talking about using traditional diplomacy to talk to Iran, to talk to Syria.
I think the proof in the pudding is to talk to North Korea as we did. I think I had a little bit to do with them recently announcing that they're going to let inspectors in a little bit. I give credit to the administration. But I'll take credit for getting the remains of our soldiers back. [During the 1990s, Richardson negotiated with North Korea several times and secured its agreement to search for the bodies of U.S. MIAs from the Korean War.]
But there are parameters. You can't negotiate with someone who wants to kill you.
You just said that you wouldn't negotiate with "the most extreme leadership of Hamas." Are there parts of Hamas that we might think about talking to?
There are parts of Hamas that might be able to work with [Palestinian leader Mahmoud] Abbas. I still would fundamentally have a precondition: They have to renounce the destruction of Israel. Yes, I have seen some things that suggest that there are a few openings there.
A last question. You mentioned here in Ossipee that you are in the Guinness Book of World Records for the most handshakes in a single day. [The Richardson record is 13,392 while campaigning for New Mexico governor in 2002.] What do you think that people want when they shake the hand of a presidential candidate like yourself?
They want to look you in the eye and make a judgment whether you're genuine. They want to touch you to see if you care about them. If you don't look them in the eye -- and if you appear to be just going through the motions -- they will detect that. It is a way of connecting personally. Which is why I believe that running for president is not just appearing on television and having TV ads and having bloggers talk about your policies. It's also talking to human beings and simply sending them two messages. That you care about them. And if you elect me, I'll make your life a little bit better. That's all.
Thank you.
About the writer
Walter Shapiro is Salon's Washington bureau chief. A complete listing of his articles is here.
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