You've received a lot of criticism from enviros of your support for coal-to-liquids technology. You recently shifted your position somewhat, but haven't retracted it. Why?
I was always firm that if the life-cycle carbon emissions of coal-to-liquids were higher than gasoline, we couldn't do it because it would contradict my position on reducing greenhouse gases. But I also believe that because of the abundance of coal in the U.S., coal-based fuels could be a substitute for some of the oil we import from the Middle East, as long as we can reduce the resulting carbon-dioxide emissions to 20 percent below current levels from petroleum-based fuels.
How much should we be willing to pay in taxpayer money to make liquid coal that clean?
Our original bill on coal-to-liquids -- which generated a lot of heat in the environmental community, no pun intended -- proposed $200 million for demonstration projects, to see where this technology might take us.
If the technology exists for us to use coal in a clean fashion, then that is something all of us should welcome, particularly because China and India are building coal-fired power plants at a rapid rate, and they likely have life spans of several decades. Coal is a cheaper resource, and they're going to be figuring out a way to exploit it, so we should help to find technologies that will ensure that if it is used, it is used cleanly. The U.S. is recognized as the global leader in understanding better geologic coal-sequestration technologies. If we abandon that leadership, we risk leaving the rest of the planet wide open to investing billions in polluting infrastructure.
But I stress again that my position has been consistent throughout: If we are using coal in the absence of these clean technologies, then we are going to be worsening the trend of global warming, and that is something that we can't do.
Do you support a freeze in the U.S. on new coal development until these clean-coal technologies are commercially available?
I believe that relying on the ingenuity of the free market, coupled with a strong carbon cap, is the best way to reduce carbon emissions rather than an arbitrary freeze on development.
As president, would you oppose subsidizing any technology that increases global warming -- even if it reduced our dependence on foreign oil?
As a general principle I would agree with that. I would not make huge investments or try to take technologies to scale that worsen the climate change situation. But it may be appropriate for the federal government to make small investments in pilot projects to see if we can make dirty fuels cleaner.
I think that with nuclear power, we have got to see if there are ways for us to store the radioactive material in a safe, environmentally sound way, and if we can do that and deal with the some of the safety and security issues, [nuclear power] is something that we should look at.
My general view is that we should experiment with all sorts of potential energy sources -- don't prejudge what works and what doesn't, but insist that we have very strict standards in terms of where we want to end up, and enforce those standards vigorously.
Some argue that we should only commit to a global climate treaty if China and India do as well. Do you agree? How would you bring China and India to the table?
We shouldn't look at it as a single tit-for-tat exchange. The U.S. is the world's largest economy and the largest single source of the world's greenhouse-gas emissions, so it is our responsibility to take the first step. We cannot expect China and India, with a billion people each, to take the lead on this if we do not -- but we can expect them to join us if we demonstrate leadership. If we must take the first step, our second and third steps must be conditioned on meaningful participation by all countries. This is also an enormous opportunity for us to provide our technological expertise to these nations so they can leapfrog to cleaner technologies.
You are a strong supporter of both corn and cellulosic ethanol, both of which would get a major boost from your proposed National Low Carbon Fuel Standard. How, specifically, will you structure policies that transition the U.S. away from corn ethanol and toward cellulosic?
No single feedstock is going to get us to energy independence, and none will be the perfect solution -- each faces its own challenges. Cornstarch ethanol provides a critically important bridge toward energy independence and corn remains a strong part of the domestic biofuels industry. But developing greater volumes of cellulosics is a critical next step in domestic biofuel development, and is the key component of my Low Carbon Fuel Standard bill.
Through greater fuel economy and the use of hybrid and plug-in vehicles, we can notably reduce our dependence on foreign oil over the next decade. It is important to note that domestic fuel security, environmental protection and economic development all must be considered in unison as we progress. My National Low Carbon Fuel Standard provides a way for us to better understand the impacts of an advanced biofuels industry on the environment, so that as we move forward on cellulosics and other domestic fuels we do so responsibly.
What environmental achievement are you proudest of?
In 2006, I developed an innovative approach to gradually increase CAFE [corporate average fuel economy] standards while protecting the financial future of American automakers. The resulting Obama-Lugar-Biden Fuel Economy Reform Act gained the support of senators who had never supported CAFE increases before. This, in turn, helped lay the foundation for Senate passage of updated CAFE standards last month.
After climate and energy, what do you think is the most important environmental issue facing the nation?
Restoring the strength of the EPA to adequately enforce our clean-air, clean-water and other environmental protection laws, after over six years of ruling by ideology rather than science and adherence to the law.
Who is your environmental hero?
If I think historically, Rachel Carson probably had as much to do as anybody in helping trigger an environmental consciousness in this country.
I also admire Teddy Roosevelt, who probably wouldn't have seen himself as an environmentalist in modern terms, but who had a great appreciation of the outdoors and the beauty of our land, and understood that part of the role of the president is sound stewardship.
If you could spend one week in a natural area in the U.S., where would it be?
I have very fond memories as a kid of traveling to Yellowstone, marveling at the scenery and chasing after bison, much to my mother's distress.
But when I think of my own connection to the Earth, I think of my time in Hawaii, my birthplace. I think those of us who grew up in Hawaii have a particular attachment to the land and understand how fragile it is. When you are snorkeling through the coral reefs, you realize that a slight change in temperature or increase in sediment and runoff could end up destroying it all and making it unavailable for your children. That is something you worry about.
What have you done personally to lighten your environmental footprint?
We just bought a Ford Escape, so I traded in a nonhybrid for a hybrid. We are in the process of replacing our light bulbs in our house and trying to limit the use of our air conditioning, trying to make sure that we unplug and turn off all of our appliances when we're not using them. It's a fun project to work on with my 9-year-old and my 6-year-old.
This article is part of a series of interviews with presidential candidates produced jointly by Grist and Outside.
About the writer
Amanda Griscom Little is a columnist for Grist Magazine. Her articles on energy, technology and the environment have appeared in publications ranging from Rolling Stone to the New York Times Magazine.
Related Stories
Hillary Clinton: Coal isn't going away
The presidential contender says we should look into "clean coal," but she can't promise she would never support "dirty" energy.
Story finder (3 ways to search Salon)
Salon Directory (browse by topic)