Sugar has done a few other things in his life -- he is credited by old editions of Books in Print with having written or co-written 83 books, mostly on sports, which once earned him the tag (courtesy Nik Cohn) "The Isaac Asimov of Athletics" -- and he currently writes a column for SportsBusiness Journal. But it's as editor of the Ring magazine, Boxing Illustrated and Bert Sugar's Fight Game that he has made a niche. When the HBO people do a boxing documentary, they call Bert Sugar and fill in the rest of the names later; when a boxing movie ("The Great White Hype" or "Play It to the Bone" or the De Niro version of "Night and the City") is being cast and they need a Bert Sugar type to appear in a fedora, chewing an unlit cigar, they call Jack Klugman -- and if he's not available they call Bert Sugar.

I wanted to do a piece on all the issues surrounding boxing today, and since it involved extensive conversation with Bert Sugar, and since there was virtually no one else who could or would discuss such things, I decided, what the hell, to simply interview ... Bert Sugar. I was asked in return only to mention his next book, "Total Boxing" (the boxing companion to the "Total Baseball" and "Total Football" giant volumes published by Sports Publishing). Begun with the late Phil Berger, "Total Boxing" will be available "after I finish it."

Give me your top five heavyweights of all time.

You mean the five best, or who would win if they fought?

What's your difference?

These guys have gotten huge. I don't think Lennox Lewis is nearly as good as Rocky Marciano, but there's no doubt in my mind that given a 50-pound weight advantage he could simply smother Rocky if they fought. He wouldn't hurt him, but he'd smother him.

OK, five best heavyweights, pound for pound.

Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis ...

I don't believe you ...

Shut up, let me finish. Sam Langford, Muhammad Ali, Jack Johnson. Now, you were going to tell me how Ali could have beaten Dempsey and Louis?

C'mon, Dempsey was completely outboxed by Gene Tunney, and Louis was befuddled by Billy Conn, a light-heavy, and Ali was 20 to 30 pounds heavier than those guys ...

But you said "pound for pound." I'm making Dempsey about 215 pounds, or shrinking Ali to about 190. Your rules, not mine.

You are still so wrong. Give me the top five all time, pound for pound.

Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong -- did you know that except for a bad decision, he nearly held half the titles in boxing at one time? -- Harry Grebb, Jack Dempsey and Benny Leonard.

Budd Schulberg once told me that the origin of the "You coulda been another Billy Conn" speech in "On the Waterfront" was when he heard his dad say to someone, "He coulda been another Benny Leonard." You are so wrong about Dempsey.

Yeah?

He fought one great fighter who was in his prime in his whole career, Gene Tunney, and Tunney whipped him soundly ...

Tunney probably won 18 or 19 of the 20 rounds between them, but Dempsey nearly equalized with a couple of punches in the second fight, "The Long Count."

You're so wrong.

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